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Col 2:13 - and he has forgiven you all your sins ... or us ?
Jerzy, sometimes these little things can be quite interesting.

Quote:In an electronic text of Textus Receptus I have on my laptop, it shows me both pronouns, in brackets, so I think there must be different versions on the Greek side,..

It may not be a matter of showing Greek variants there, but rather the two versions of the "TR". For instance, if you are looking at Scrivener's Textus Receptus, it is not the real "TR", as it is really an edited text created in the latter 1800s, which takes the KJVs translation reading choices, translates them into Greek, and thus conforms the actual Greek "TR" text into a new edited hybrid "TR"/"KJV" Greek text, which never existed before, and doesn't always match either exactly.

There are some readings in the KJV which come in from other sources, such as the Latin Vulgate text, so, it can be confusing when looking at Scrivener's edited Greek text, as in some places there are no Greek texts which reads its way, because, the KJV isn't just a translation of the Greek text, as its translators have said in their introduction in the original 1611 edition, but at times incorporates other non-Greek sources into its text, where they felt the reading was right. Most always it is from the original form of the "TR" Greek, but not always.

If you want to read what is in the real "TR", which was in existence before the KJV came into existence, you need to look at the 1550 Stephanus Textus Receptus. In this verse the real "TR" reads "Hemin" "us", Scrivener's edited "TR" has translated the KJV reading in its edited Greek text and has "Hymin" "you".

So, where did the KJV get "you" from? It seems it was taken from the Latin text, namely the Latin Vulgate...which reads "donans vobis omnia delicta" "forgiving you all offences"

Now, where did that reading come from? Was it from a Greek text that was used for the Vulgate's translation, or was it mistranslated when the Latin Vulgate was being made? It wouldn't seem so.

If not from the Greek text, it seems to have been previously part of the old Latin text, if what we read in this English translation from the early Latin Church father, Tertullian is accurate, where he quotes the passage in one of his books published in about the year 208 A.D.

I don't have a copy of the Latin text to confirm this English translation, but, it reads thus:

Quote:The apostle indeed teaches, in his Epistle to the Colossians, that we were once dead, alienated, and enemies to the Lord in our minds, whilst we were living in wicked works; that we were then buried with Christ in baptism, and also raised again with Him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised Him from the dead. ?And you, (adds he), when ye were dead in sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath He quickened together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses.?

Tertullian: "On the Resurrection of the Flesh" Chapter 23, as translated by Dr. Holmes, published in The Anti-Nicene Fathers Vol 3.

There is another Latin text witness, which has the "you" and even "your" wording, again, if the English translation is accurate, found quoted in the Latin Church father, Saint Hilary of Poitiers :

Quote:Then is completed the entire mystery of the assumed manhood, "And you being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you I say, did He quicken together with Him, having forgiven you all your trespasses, blotting out the bond written in ordinances, that was against us, which was contrary to us; and He hath taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross, and having put off from Himself His flesh, He hath made a shew of powers, triumphing over them in Himself."

Ante Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers, Hilary of Poitiers: De Trinitate or On the Trinity, Book 9-section 10

The plot thickens...

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Re: Col 2:13 - and he has forgiven you all your sins ... or - by Aramaic - 01-27-2014, 06:10 AM

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