04-09-2011, 12:13 PM
dr p Wrote:Gentlemen: you are using the term "Protestant" equivocally. It doesn't mean "non-Catholic of any particular persuasion," but specifically refers to those churches and believers who hold to the teachings of the Reformation. This would exclude all anabaptists, cultists, and liberals despite how they may denominate themselves. There are a number of churches who call themselves Catholic (eg sedevacantists, rogue AC's, Old Catholic churches, etc) and Orthodox ( see <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Independent_Orthodox_churches">http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Independent ... x_churches</a><!-- m -->), but that doesn't make them so. If a church or individual believer is not confessionally Reformed, Lutheran, or Anglican, then the appellation "Protestant" doesn't apply.
As an historic confessional Protestant I feel free to remind you that so-called "apostolic" churches can't agree on the original language, manuscript, or even extent of the canon (this site boslsters my claim), yet believe themselves to be guided by the Holy Ghost - and then wag the finger at confessional Protestants; as for sacraments, I believe the ACOE differs from all vis-a-vis the sign of the cross. You can't have it both ways: either your particular body is the sole repository of truth, making all others usurpers, or we accept the Westminster Confession of Faith ch 25: "IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible. And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them. V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will."
The OT church had been pretty corrupt since the Hasmoneans, yet there was still truth in her and true believers (eg the Holy Family, Simeon, Anna, etc), so the idea that Reformers can whip moneychangers and overturn tables is not out of accord with Scripture. Whilst we will be led into all truth by the Holy Ghost (John 16.13), the clause "by close of business Friday" doesn't appear in the older manuscripts.
Believe as you wish, but debate and discuss cleanly so as to not bear false witness against fellow believers.
Sorry I am so late to this thread, but I just wanted to say, dr p, that was an awesome post! My question, though, is when do we say a church has degenerated to the point of becoming a synagogue of Satan and is no longer a true church? Could anyone give me some examples?
Thanks,
Keith