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Setting the record straight
#49
gbausc Wrote:Anyone translating holy scripture should hold himself/herself to the highest of ethical and moral standards of accountability, and should be held to those high standards by potential readers of that translation. Complete honesty and openness is essential to the translator, so that there can be no question as to the nature of the work. All sources will be thoroughly cited and credited as such. If the work is a revision of another translation, that should be stated clearly in the title and in the preface, with a detailed explanation of the basic reason for the revision and how it differs from the source text.

Andrew has:

a) been completely honest, it's not his problem if you don't understand what "compilation" and "edited" (in the title page) means.
b) given proper attribution even to the satisfaction of one of the original authors (Paul Younan). Just who are you to say HOW Andrew should properly attribute Paul? There are no laws, whether written or unwritten on HOW someone should attribute the original author of a PD work, "in the intro/preface" is YOUR definition. Just because Andrew's definition on HOW to make proper attribution may differ from yours, it doesn't mean that his is wrong and yours is right, it's a PD work - there are no rules.

If it was your PD interlinear that Andrew used as a source, and you felt that he hadn't given you proper attribution in the preface/intro, then I would be condemning Andrew for plagiarizing you, and I wouldn't object you suing him for it. BUT it's Paul's work and he has said over and over that Andrew didn't plagiarize him - that should suffice. The fact is your accusations are without basis.

gbausc Wrote:[i]Even when proper attribution is given to the sources, the copied material should not be too copious (a majority of the new work), as stated above, or the author may be charged with plagiarism.

Wrong, that only applies when the source is still under copyright - in which case the author can only quote or copy within the limit stipulated in the copyright notice, however much it may be. If the copyright notice says that all the work can be copied without written permission (and I've never heard of such a case), then what you wrote above would make sense - don't take advantage of the author's generosity.

But this makes no sense when the source is PD because the law says that PD works can be copied freely, without permission and without limitation, that's how everyone understands PD, how else do you explain the countless revisions of the KJV? There is NO limit to the amount one can copy from a PD source. It's not Andrew's problem if YOU think that the AENT reads "too much" like Murdock and Younan - that is YOUR opinion and nothing more.

Now lemme ask you a question: DO YOU THINK THAT THE AMOUNT THAT YOU, RYAN & ALBION COPIED FROM THE AENT & POSTED ON AMAZON IS "TOO COPIOUS"? I DO!

gbausc Wrote:[i]The author of a Bible translation cannot be too careful in this matter; easily he or she can be caught up in the temptation to get a book published as quickly as possible and take unethical shortcuts in the process.[i]

You still think PD makes no difference, haven't you been listening? It does. If Andrew felt any pressure to get his translation published "as quickly as possible" perhaps it was because of Albion's constant nagging: "17 days to go until MARI/PEACE", "5 days to go until MARI/PEACE" - search through his posts to see what I'm talking about.

gbausc Wrote:[i]It is irrelevant if "I posted this about my sources", or "I got permission from so and so", when considering whether a work is plagiarized. Plagiarism is not necessarily copyright infringement.

Fine believe what you want; should you take Andrew to court for this, I bet the only opinion the judge will be interested in is Paul's, as his interlinear was one of his sources, and Murdock, well we don't need to go there. You on the other hand made no contribution to Andrew's work whatsoever, Andrew never made any use of your work, so I doubt the judge will be interested in anything you have to say.

gbausc Wrote:Plagiarism is copying someone else's words, music or artistic material (intellectual property) and presenting them as one's own. The book itself should include proper attribution to the authors whose work is used: "This book is a substantial revision of such and such text written by so and so in such and such places."

In other words, the potential customer as well as the actual customer should know what the nature of the book is, especially in the case of a translation of scripture.

Is it a fresh translation, or is it a revision of another translation?

This must be plainly stated up front.

And it is, you just refuse to accept that the attribution is proper just because it conflicts with your definition. Here is an example of Andrew's attribution IN THE INTRODUCTION:

Quote:...To retain as much consistency as possible, Paul Younan's translation has been compared from Matthew 1 to Acts 15 and James Murdock's translation for the remainder, each word has been cross-checked with Aramaic. In some cases, both sources are woven together into this translation, under a unifying editorial vision and approach. That approach includes the following:

*In places where James Murdock used the later Western Peshitto readings, the Eastern originals have been restored. In places where a more accurate or detailed translation was required, than chosen by my mentors, the preferred readings were substituted for this edition...

Who are these "mentors"? Can't you see that they are mentioned in the paragraph above BY NAME? Andrew calls Paul and Murdock HIS MENTORS, how can that not count as "proper attribution"???

It's not Andrew's fault if you didn't read or understand this correctly. You, Albion & Ryan don't like Andrew's translation, that's fine, you don't have to, but you cannot accuse him of plagiarism. Paul & Murdock's NTs are PD works, Andrew attributes his work to them, the WAY he did so may not satisfy you but your opinion is not the one that matters because you are not the ones he needed to credit, you're just unsatisfied customers. You have no case, that is the truth - that's life.

gbausc Wrote:I did not make up the rules above quoted, and when we think clearly about this, common sense
dictates that these standards are essential.

Most of the rules don't apply to this particular situation which I why I deleted them - that IS common sense.

gbausc Wrote:If I were to take George Lamsa's or John Wesley Etheridge's translation (each of which is now public domain) and simply republish it with my name on it, would that be ethical?

I agree, it would be but it's already been proven to you over and over again that Andrew hasn't done this. You think he did, so what? That's YOUR opinion, just because it's your opinion, it doesn't mean it's fact.

gbausc Wrote:Let our definitions and standards be complete and high; at least as high as the secular world's
standards; certainly not lower. We cannot afford or tolerate sloppiness in attitude or method; nor would we see what we can get away with. Our standard must honor and please the true Author of scripture, and reflect the excellence of The Most High. Less than than can only bring us shame, and displeasure to Him.

I agree how about we start with your review? You say "THIS IS PLAGIARISM!!!!", how about you change this to "I THINK this is plagiarism" or "In MY opinion this is plagiarism".

Of course Andrew wants to please his customers but he knows he can't please everyone, you should know this too as you yourself are an author and there have been many complaints about your translation. And how did you handle them? Many members here complained that your Peshitta ELS codes weren't real but did that move you change what you state in your NT about them? No, you fought their accusations like a zealot, and you didn't change what you stated about them in your NT, you still state you have the perfect Peshitta text even though others who are more knowledgeable on the Peshitta have told you otherwise. So you've got a nerve to persist in your hypocrisy!

I'm not the only one here you can see through your "holier than thou" smoke screen, you haven't convinced me that your intentions are noble:

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (JPS)
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.


Messages In This Thread
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 04-30-2009, 07:30 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 04-30-2009, 05:08 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 04-30-2009, 06:57 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Thirdwoe - 05-01-2009, 05:18 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-01-2009, 04:03 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 05-01-2009, 04:34 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-01-2009, 07:12 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 01:28 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 05-02-2009, 10:47 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-02-2009, 03:37 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 04:07 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 04:32 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-02-2009, 05:02 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 06:34 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Thirdwoe - 05-02-2009, 07:39 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 09:45 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-02-2009, 09:52 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-03-2009, 02:45 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-03-2009, 02:58 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-03-2009, 03:03 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-03-2009, 03:21 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-03-2009, 03:48 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 05-03-2009, 02:10 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 03:46 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 04:16 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 04:21 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-03-2009, 04:23 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 07:03 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-03-2009, 07:23 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 07:42 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-03-2009, 08:18 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 05-03-2009, 08:24 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-03-2009, 09:13 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-04-2009, 04:19 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-04-2009, 04:42 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by judge - 05-04-2009, 11:53 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 05-04-2009, 02:13 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-04-2009, 07:11 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-04-2009, 09:17 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-04-2009, 09:50 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by judge - 05-05-2009, 06:46 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by judge - 05-05-2009, 07:28 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Paul Younan - 05-05-2009, 02:30 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Burning one - 05-05-2009, 09:17 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by judge - 05-05-2009, 10:16 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-05-2009, 10:29 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 05-05-2009, 11:10 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by enarxe - 05-06-2009, 12:03 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by judge - 05-06-2009, 02:57 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Burning one - 05-06-2009, 05:33 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 09-13-2009, 09:44 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 09-14-2009, 03:12 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Burning one - 09-14-2009, 06:20 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Dawid - 09-14-2009, 11:20 AM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 09-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by gbausc - 09-14-2009, 05:15 PM
Re: Setting the record straight - by Christina - 09-14-2009, 07:02 PM

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