07-27-2008, 11:43 PM
WOW Paul!
I???ve been waiting for that lexical dynamite for a long time. Todah rabbah!
Dave ???..
This isn???t a matter of regeneration; it???s a matter of qualification. The verses you offer here actually negate your statement of not being able to ???unravel your way in???. Why? Well, try and see it this way:
Lk. 14:33
So every one of you who doth not [unravel] all his possessions, cannot be my disciple.
- or this way? -
Mt. 19:21 / Mk. 10:21
If you want to be perfect, go [unravel] your possessions and give them to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come; follow me.
Now, would this not be ???impossible??? for a rich man to ???do???, if it truly were impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Yet if it is not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, then how exactly can or does he enter? With or by his wealth? Of course not! Thereby, we are not arguing here about regeneration or any other theological ideas, other than a simple qualification for discipleship. Same thing you corrected me on one time before, concerning the true disciple who must hate his mother and father in light of his love for the Master! This is merely a qualitative feature of a true disciple. Y???shua???s disciples cannot serve two masters. They will either prefer the one and neglect the other, or love the one and hate the other. If a man has wealth, does this make him intrinsically evil? No! Only if he loves his mammon. Did Yosep of Arimathea love his wealth more than his Master? I don???t read the Gospels this way. It appears to me the reader, that he instead unraveled his riches to honor his Master, by providing a tomb worthy of his deceased Lord, along with fine burial linens which His less wealthy disciples could not have afforded Him. No?
Besides, accepting your otherwise good point of view of comparing living people with living camels instead something inanimate, only arises a stickier issue. What then would be our Lord???s definition of ???rich???? $50 rich? $500 rich? $500 million rich? Or perhaps 5 cents rich? It is too easy to then see mammon as being completely forbidden from use by a disciple of Christ at all. But I also read in our Lord???s Gospel where He charged His disciples to go to the sea, and collect something to be paid to this world???s system. To render unto Caesar was is Caesar???s. You accept donations to your ministry, don???t you? Why? Not only to provide your family, but so that WITH that currency, you may AFFORD the time and resources that it takes to translate the Peshitta, yes? And the ???richer??? you could become, the more I???m sure you could donate to the needy, the poor, the sick, the Peshitta-less world ???.. yes?
So isn???t [contextually] the issue over LOVE OF MAMMON? I???ve known some rich people. And my God, do they hate the idea of not being rich! It???s not so far fetched a concept to me that it is indeed difficult for wealthy men to be willing to not only sacrifice their wealth to God???s Will, but if He were to ask them, to actually sacrifice IT ALL. Alas, now that is not easier for them! It is then, that their true love would be revealed. This sounds awfully contextual to me. For Father Abraham, a rich Middle Easterner indeed, as well as Yosep and Nicodemus, wealth was more of a blessing from God ??? something that they could use to live comfortably as well as bless Him by, wasn???t it?
I believe Andrew was saying that Matthew 19:24 does NOT say ???it is easier for a gamla to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God (for which it is impossible)???.
Your contextual interpolation would work, only if it were in fact the teaching of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua, and His Apostles, that it is indeed impossible for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God.
But is it possible to enter the Kingdom as a murderer? No. Yet I am taught that to hate my brother in my heart is to be guilty of murder! That would make me a murderer. Yet, I am so taught to hate mother and father, or I cannot be a true disciple. Alas, Moses taught, and Y???shua confirmed, to also love mother and father. So which is it?
I am to honor my parents in the Lord; my mother and my father; to love my neighbor as I love myself, etc. ??????. but in comparison to my love for MarYah ?????? this love should be as hatred [by comparison], yes?
44 ???And all those who believed were together and everything they had was communal.
45 ???And those who had a possession were selling it and distributing to each man according to whatever was needed.???
-Acts 2 in Plain English
7 ???But there was in that place a village belonging to a man whose name was Puplios, who was The Chief of the island, and he joyfully received us into his house for three days.
8 ???The father of Puplios had a fever and was ill with a disease of the intestines and Paulus entered his presence and prayed and laid his hand upon him and healed him.
9 ???And when this happened, the rest of those who were sick in the island were coming to him, and they were healed.
10 ???And they honored us greatly, and when we were leaving from there, they loaded us with provisions.???
-Acts 28 in Plain English
The examples would seem endless if looking at YHWH???s Israel in the Tanakh. Material wealth was actually part of the sign of being in His blessing. Land wealth, livestock wealth, food wealth, no lack of clothing, supplies of any sort; if fact, they were charged with spoils from Pharaoh while exiting Egypt, and while possessing the Promised Land. Great examples, also, for which we get to glimpse at the dire conditions of those Israelites??? hearts. Almost non-stop idol-making with their gold and precious metals; even Gideon the righteous judge became entrapped by his own pride of military victory, into the weight of the golden earrings that he requested to make an ephod (forbidden). The whole of Israel went whoring after it. Lessons to learn by, yes. But so are the ones where many riches were used to build the Tabernacle; the Ark; the Menorah; the commerce of Israel and its success throughout the Middle East as the prize nation among all nations. Very difficult for a rich man to rightly appropriate his wealth. Indeed. Yet not impossible.
If one isn???t willing to unravel their wealth for their King, then He isn???t their king. And His demand, we can all agree, is expressed through Yeshua as all-or-nothing. This is the quality a true disciple must possess, isn???t it? All-or-nothing. Yeshua definitely taught that lovers of mammon are not lovers of Him. It is impossible. One cannot serve two masters. But did He in fact teach that it is IMPOSSIBLE to both be rich and His disciple? Well, he certainly did teach
As Paul says, it???d have to be one hell of a needle for a thick rope to pass through, and then again, one could always make camel patties to squeeze it through as well <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->! Far better context, especially preaching to many fishermen intimately familiar with ship rope ???..
Hopefully you can see the point that Paul, Otto, I think now Stephen, Andrew, as well as myself personally, are seeing concerning Gamla/Gamala as ???rope???. If not, well, I tried. Gotta go now.
Shlama w???burkate,
Ryan
I???ve been waiting for that lexical dynamite for a long time. Todah rabbah!
Dave ???..
Quote:If you think you can unravel your way in, you are deceived. You cannot take a penny through the gate!But what about your -
Quote:Luke 14:26-33- or ???
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33 So every one of you who doth not give up all his possessions, cannot be my disciple ???Murdock
Quote:What He said to the rich man, he says to all of us: ???Go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor; and you will have a treasure in heaven; and come after me.??????????
This isn???t a matter of regeneration; it???s a matter of qualification. The verses you offer here actually negate your statement of not being able to ???unravel your way in???. Why? Well, try and see it this way:
Lk. 14:33
So every one of you who doth not [unravel] all his possessions, cannot be my disciple.
- or this way? -
Mt. 19:21 / Mk. 10:21
If you want to be perfect, go [unravel] your possessions and give them to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come; follow me.
Now, would this not be ???impossible??? for a rich man to ???do???, if it truly were impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Yet if it is not impossible for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven, then how exactly can or does he enter? With or by his wealth? Of course not! Thereby, we are not arguing here about regeneration or any other theological ideas, other than a simple qualification for discipleship. Same thing you corrected me on one time before, concerning the true disciple who must hate his mother and father in light of his love for the Master! This is merely a qualitative feature of a true disciple. Y???shua???s disciples cannot serve two masters. They will either prefer the one and neglect the other, or love the one and hate the other. If a man has wealth, does this make him intrinsically evil? No! Only if he loves his mammon. Did Yosep of Arimathea love his wealth more than his Master? I don???t read the Gospels this way. It appears to me the reader, that he instead unraveled his riches to honor his Master, by providing a tomb worthy of his deceased Lord, along with fine burial linens which His less wealthy disciples could not have afforded Him. No?
Besides, accepting your otherwise good point of view of comparing living people with living camels instead something inanimate, only arises a stickier issue. What then would be our Lord???s definition of ???rich???? $50 rich? $500 rich? $500 million rich? Or perhaps 5 cents rich? It is too easy to then see mammon as being completely forbidden from use by a disciple of Christ at all. But I also read in our Lord???s Gospel where He charged His disciples to go to the sea, and collect something to be paid to this world???s system. To render unto Caesar was is Caesar???s. You accept donations to your ministry, don???t you? Why? Not only to provide your family, but so that WITH that currency, you may AFFORD the time and resources that it takes to translate the Peshitta, yes? And the ???richer??? you could become, the more I???m sure you could donate to the needy, the poor, the sick, the Peshitta-less world ???.. yes?
So isn???t [contextually] the issue over LOVE OF MAMMON? I???ve known some rich people. And my God, do they hate the idea of not being rich! It???s not so far fetched a concept to me that it is indeed difficult for wealthy men to be willing to not only sacrifice their wealth to God???s Will, but if He were to ask them, to actually sacrifice IT ALL. Alas, now that is not easier for them! It is then, that their true love would be revealed. This sounds awfully contextual to me. For Father Abraham, a rich Middle Easterner indeed, as well as Yosep and Nicodemus, wealth was more of a blessing from God ??? something that they could use to live comfortably as well as bless Him by, wasn???t it?
I believe Andrew was saying that Matthew 19:24 does NOT say ???it is easier for a gamla to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God (for which it is impossible)???.
Your contextual interpolation would work, only if it were in fact the teaching of Moses, the Prophets, Yeshua, and His Apostles, that it is indeed impossible for rich people to enter the Kingdom of God.
But is it possible to enter the Kingdom as a murderer? No. Yet I am taught that to hate my brother in my heart is to be guilty of murder! That would make me a murderer. Yet, I am so taught to hate mother and father, or I cannot be a true disciple. Alas, Moses taught, and Y???shua confirmed, to also love mother and father. So which is it?
I am to honor my parents in the Lord; my mother and my father; to love my neighbor as I love myself, etc. ??????. but in comparison to my love for MarYah ?????? this love should be as hatred [by comparison], yes?
44 ???And all those who believed were together and everything they had was communal.
45 ???And those who had a possession were selling it and distributing to each man according to whatever was needed.???
-Acts 2 in Plain English
7 ???But there was in that place a village belonging to a man whose name was Puplios, who was The Chief of the island, and he joyfully received us into his house for three days.
8 ???The father of Puplios had a fever and was ill with a disease of the intestines and Paulus entered his presence and prayed and laid his hand upon him and healed him.
9 ???And when this happened, the rest of those who were sick in the island were coming to him, and they were healed.
10 ???And they honored us greatly, and when we were leaving from there, they loaded us with provisions.???
-Acts 28 in Plain English
The examples would seem endless if looking at YHWH???s Israel in the Tanakh. Material wealth was actually part of the sign of being in His blessing. Land wealth, livestock wealth, food wealth, no lack of clothing, supplies of any sort; if fact, they were charged with spoils from Pharaoh while exiting Egypt, and while possessing the Promised Land. Great examples, also, for which we get to glimpse at the dire conditions of those Israelites??? hearts. Almost non-stop idol-making with their gold and precious metals; even Gideon the righteous judge became entrapped by his own pride of military victory, into the weight of the golden earrings that he requested to make an ephod (forbidden). The whole of Israel went whoring after it. Lessons to learn by, yes. But so are the ones where many riches were used to build the Tabernacle; the Ark; the Menorah; the commerce of Israel and its success throughout the Middle East as the prize nation among all nations. Very difficult for a rich man to rightly appropriate his wealth. Indeed. Yet not impossible.
If one isn???t willing to unravel their wealth for their King, then He isn???t their king. And His demand, we can all agree, is expressed through Yeshua as all-or-nothing. This is the quality a true disciple must possess, isn???t it? All-or-nothing. Yeshua definitely taught that lovers of mammon are not lovers of Him. It is impossible. One cannot serve two masters. But did He in fact teach that it is IMPOSSIBLE to both be rich and His disciple? Well, he certainly did teach
Quote:???Go, sell all that you have, and give to the poor; and you will have a treasure in heaven; and come after me.???to at least one rich man. I???m sure that it was the test of his lifetime! Yet to Yoseph ben Yaakov ben Yitzak ben Avraham, who was suppressed for many years in the dankness of an Egyptian dungeon, YHWH saw fit to exalt him in trust to the very height of the Pharaoh???s empire! And in so doing, He ended up providing Yoseph???s entire family, the future kingdom of Israel, with good food and shelter throughout a famine. Very similar, I believe, to Acts 2 and 28, and numerous other examples, especially Yosep of Arimathea???s.
As Paul says, it???d have to be one hell of a needle for a thick rope to pass through, and then again, one could always make camel patties to squeeze it through as well <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->! Far better context, especially preaching to many fishermen intimately familiar with ship rope ???..
Quote:Yeshua was not talking to a rich man. He was talking to His disciples about the rich man???.. to visualize the unraveling, string by string, of a thick rope in order to pass it through a needle. Granted, a rich man ain???t squeezing his money-threads through along with himself in heaven, but then again, all those threads should be spent by then on seeing to it that ???each man according to whatever was needed??? is communally provisioned. And this is where I believe the entire Kahal/Ekklesia of Elohim has seriously failed! We???re all running around like chickens with our heads cut off ??? perhaps we are insane from greed and selfishness?
Hopefully you can see the point that Paul, Otto, I think now Stephen, Andrew, as well as myself personally, are seeing concerning Gamla/Gamala as ???rope???. If not, well, I tried. Gotta go now.
Shlama w???burkate,
Ryan