Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Was Jesus Forsaken On The Cross? (Part 1)
I brought this over to 'The Aramaic Peshitta Bible Repository' from here, and Praise MarYah, now I bring it BACK!! <!-- s:oha: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/oha.gif" alt=":oha:" title="Oha!" /><!-- s:oha: -->

Was Jesus Forsaken By God? (Part 1)
?? Thread Started on Sept 4, 2007, 12:39pm ??
Shlama Akhi All,

I copied this from ' Forum'.

I hope that this is OK with everyone, because I CAN'T write there, but I have something to add to this thread, and I'd like to do it here.

Find my addition at the bottom of this thread.......

MATTHEW 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying,

Yntqb4 0nml Ly0 Ly0

"Eli, Eli, lemana shabak-thani."

[my] God [my] God why have you spared me

From this web site and forum I learned that this is translated as ,"My God, My God, why have you spared me?" or "My God, My God , why have you leaved me here?". These are apt words for a dying man in pain. Luke and John don't even mention these spoken words, and no book of the New Testament addresses them directly.

Apparently the Aramaic word "shabak" can mean to keep or spare. Aramaic scholars do not all agree on the shades of meaning but they all seem to agree that it does NOT mean "to forsake" in the American English sense, which according to the American Heritage Dictionary means, "to give up, renounce, reject, or leave altogether."

Dave Bauscher's excellent translations of Matthew and Mark both use the word "forsaken", which I think is unfortunate since this will tend to perpetuate an incorrect image of Jesus, although it follows the lead of Murdock and Etheridge. Lamsa has "kept" and Paul Younan has "spared".

I hope Dave will consider using "spared" in future editions of his fine work.


Back to top

Andrew Gabriel Roth

Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 144
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 5:00 pm Post subject: Matti 27:46

Shlama Akhi Otto,

Just so you know, I translate the line in Mari/PEACE as "My El, my El, why are you sparing me?"

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Back to top


Joined: 24 May 2006
Posts: 54
Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 9:05 pm Post subject:

sorry andrew that contradicts the Tanakh. and ive been told that trasnlation is very stressed and unnatural.

Back to top


Joined: 08 Sep 2003
Posts: 209
Location: Davis, California Posted: Sun Aug 26, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject:

The only reason for referring to the Tenakh is the theory that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22, but COMPARISON OF TEXTS SHOW DIFFERENT WORDS USED!

PSALM 22:1 (For the choir director; upon Aijeleth Hashshahar. A Psalm of David.):

"Eli, Eli, lema azab-thani."
My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?

MATTHEW 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying,
"Eli, Eli, lemana shabak-thani."

[my] God, [my] God, why have you spared me.

It seems to me that it is far more likely that Jesus was crying out in anguish than reciting an Aramaic version of Psalm 22.


Back to top


Joined: 20 Nov 2003
Posts: 696
Location: New York state Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject:

Shlama Akhay,

Come on guys, this kicking around our Lord's cry from the cross has gone on far too long. This is not rocket science. The Peshitta text of Psalm 22:1 is identical to the Aramaic of Mark 15:34 :
yntqb$ 0nml yhl0 yhl0

We know what the Hebrew of Psalm 22:1 says and what it means: "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

The Aramaic Peshitta of that verse and of Mark and of Matthew are the same, so either the Peshitta OT got it wrong or got it right. Which is it? And how likely is it that the Peshitta OT and The Peshitta NT got it wrong?

That's right- not very likely !

Our Lord was crying out in anguish and in terror : "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

Explain it if you can. I choose to put my hand upon my mouth and wonder at this mystery of God in the Messiah my Savior.

"It pleased The LORD to crush him(self) . You shall make His soul an offering for sin. He poured out His soul into death."- Isaiah 53:10-12

I call this cry the cry of the dying Godhead. I know that sounds crazy to some, but I do believe God completely offered up His Divine Life and Deity in His sacrifice for sin. Nothing less would have been sufficient to redeem all souls for all time and eternity. The offering had to be Divine and Spiritual as well as physical, no matter how perfect the flesh of Christ was, and it was absolutely perfect and sinless.

That cry was more than the cry of a Man. That cry was more than the cry of The man Yeshua. That cry was more than the cry of The Messiah Yeshua. That cry was more than the cry of the Son of God, Yeshua The Messiah.

But I will proceed no further.

Ponder this cry, for in it I believe is the secret and mystery of redemption contained. It shook Heaven and earth, when "once in the end of the world He appeared to destroy sin by offering up Himself in His sacrifice." (Hebrews 9:26).

"There is no greater love than this, that someone lay down his life (napsha) for his friends." Have a look at the difference between this verse in John 15:13 in the Peshitta and the Greek.

And ask yourself this question: Does God the Father have the greatest love possible?

Khuva b'Marya Meshikha ,
(Love in Jehovah The Messiah)


Back to top

Andrew Gabriel Roth

Joined: 06 Sep 2003
Posts: 144
Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 12:10 am Post subject: We must agree to disagree

Shlama all--

First of all Akhi Rungold, there is no contradiction from Tanakh and I don't know how you feel you can dismiss what I say as "forced" without a single verse. You've been told? What have you SEEN Akhi? Do you think Paul Younan, a native speaker, is "forced" in his translation too? What about Lamsa who has the same reading? We are making it up I guess? Or is it just possible we see something in the text that makes it at least plausible?

You are not even doing justice to the Hebrew wordfor forsaken in Psalm 22:1, AZBATANI, which has a similar diversity of meaning even if Y'shua was quoting it, which I don't think he was. It could have been a statement that also might mean:

`azab TWOT - 1594,1595
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
aw-zab' Verb

to leave, loose, forsake
(Qal) to leave
to depart from, leave behind, leave, let alone
to LEAVE, abandon, forsake, neglect, apostatise
to let loose, set free, let go, free
to be left to
to be forsaken
(Pual) to be deserted
to restore, repair
(Qal) to repair

Here are just three places where LEAVE is intended as RESERVE/KEEP/SPARE for the Hebrew word:

Le 19:10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt LEAVE/RESERVE/SPARE them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Le 23:22 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt LEAVE/RESERVE/SPARE them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Le 26:43 The land also shall be LEFT/RESERVED/SPARED of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes.

Furthermore, there is Psalm 22 imagery throughout Matthew 27--it's a midrash--but Y'shua is not quoting Psalm 22:1. If you would make statements like these, I ask that you at least try a little to back it up. Tanakh more than backs me up here, and I will show you even more reasons why.

Isaiah 11:1-2 says the spirit of YHWH is IN MESSIAH, as does Zechariah 12:10. It is against both Y'shua's own teachings and Tanakh to suggest that Y'shua's humanity was in any way divorced from an understanding of the separated divine qnoma inside him. Y'shua ALWAYS knew his mission was to offer up his life and that it was Father YHWH's will. Therefore to suggest that he could "forget" this fact, even for a second in pain, is ridiculous. He did NOT feel forsaken. He could NOT feel forsaken. He wanted to get the suffering over with, and his request was granted moments later. That is what the text says.

Akhi David, again we must agree to disagree. But I am surprised that you are not taking into account the other meanings of SHBAK/AZAB that more than allow for this possibility. I won't comment further than that my friend, except to say that the same holds true for the Markan reading. To me the other meanings of SHBAK, not the the words which I know very well, are the material issue.

When faced with two or more possible readings, the one that does NOT contradict Scripture elsewhere is what I go with. I saw nothing in your other Scripture quotes that disprove my position. Of course YHWH's love is the greatest of them all. That is EXACTLY WHY He did not forsake His Son. He ALLOWED His Son to sacrifice his life, but that is far different from "forsaking". Akhi David, IF YHWH NEVER FORSAKES US, WHY WOULD HE FORSAKE HIS SON? HE RESERVED HIS SON FOR OUR SAKES.

I will leave it at that.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth

Back to top

Link to Post - Back to Top Logged


member is offline

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12 Re: Was Jesus Forsaken By God? (Part 1)
?? Reply #1 on Sept 4, 2007, 6:36pm ??
No, Jesus was not forsaken by God.

The "alternate translation", "My God, me God, for this I was spared", makes PERFECT sense, if you are willing to see a different story.

Let me try a different track. I owe this point to some heavy work done by David Christensen, who has stated that he did not think to apply Priestly Courses timetables to the Archelaus period.

He found that the Priestly Service - "Mishmarot" - for the Passover of 4 BCE, the date of the Temple Slaughter laid at the feet of Archelaus, was given to the group "Abijah". For quite a long time, I did not know how to verify whether or not there was a reason for the authorship of the stories in ~ 8 CE. I had Mishmarot but could not place the groups nor compute the rotations.

Mr. Christensen showed that the Abijah group does rotate in for Passover during the 2nd cycle and that the times match up. That is, it takes 6 years to complete a rotation of the 24 groups for Mishmarot such that the same group would be serving once again in the same week of the year (See Eisenman and Wise, _DSS Uncovered_, p. 108). It turns out that this group not only rotated back to Jerusalem during Passover after the 2nd cycle, but that the weekly times did also. Since there is no "Year Zero", this place the Abijah Mishmarot for the Passover during 9 CE.

It is this that gives an understanding of "My God, my God, for this I was spared?" Many of the stories are given time markers and these generally support a time of writing of around 8 CE. Why? Because these Priests, having come within literally moments of seizing the government from the Herodians and the Romans, are killed in the Temple and surrounding areas in 4 BCE. At least one - not John the Baptist - is "Miraculously Saved". He finds the "Narrow Way" and lives. John the Baptist does not. "Even the least in the Realm of Heaven is greater than John..." Why? Because John did not make it to the Realm of Heaven and he died.

This is the story of the Last Call to Glory. The Mishmarot Service is coming in a year and the Times match up. Only, Coponius is the Procurator from Caesarea and his 5 porticoes, 5 fasces (GJohn 5, "The Old Man by the Pool"), are the symbol of the rulership in a vastly changed world.

The Priest is betrayed and killed and he utters the phrase that now makes complete sense: "My God, my God, for this was I spared?"

It is ancient noir of unimaginable depth and it has been dismembered to what we see today.

BTW, look at the "Old Man by the Pool". He has been an invalid for 38 years. What happened ~ 38 years prior to this? Follow Herod's path from 30 BCE from the Battle of Actium and read what he did to the High Priest's Office and you will get an idea of what this Jesus was preaching.

Link to Post - Back to Top Logged


member is online

Joined: Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 84
Location: Northern Iowa Re: Was Jesus Forsaken By God? (Part 1)
?? Reply #2 on Sept 4, 2007, 7:40pm ??
Dear Charles,

You know, I'm like a scholar in the way that I think.

HOWEVER, most of Messiah's life can NOT be figured out with THE MIND.

It must be UNDERSTOOD by "the heart".

I'm literally fascinated by First Century things, especially things Jewish and Syriac (Assyrian).

But this will NEVER bring me any closer to that Living Relationship with Messiah that I want.

I tell you this not to throw disdain on your ideas here, but to point you in the Direction of Life.

Yours in Messiah, Albion
Link to Post - Back to Top Logged


member is offline

Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 12 Re: Was Jesus Forsaken By God? (Part 1)
?? Reply #3 on Sept 5, 2007, 9:19pm ??
Hello all-
I'll say it again. I am not trying to challenge anyone's beliefs.
I'm trying to see a story that has been hidden. If this story is not there, I'll know that also - I hope.

What I am trying to do is see something that crosses cultures and especially languages. It is concerned with Greek and Aramic and I would accept Aramaic Primacy in the same way I would accept Markan Priority, if the evidence is overwhelming, and it might be. I am, however, looking at an entirely different set of priorities.

I know that this story of the Slaughter of 4 BCE stands or falls on a few phrases and "My God, my God, for this I was spared" is one of them. This is why I came to this group.

If I am not welcome, let me know and I will look for another group. I would want to believe that there are those who might offer something from the knowledge of the language that would isolate the story of these Priests a little more.

It is that important.


Link to Post - Back to Top Logged


member is online

Joined: Jun 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 84
Location: Northern Iowa Re: Was Jesus Forsaken By God? (Part 1)
?? Reply #4 on Sept 5, 2007, 9:39pm ??
Shlama Charles,

Certainly you (and everyone else) are welcome here.

My priority is Messiah, and Him crucified, and Risen from the dead.

I'm very interested in the Aramaic Primacy of the New Testament, and to a lesser extent in the ancient Nazarenes, and the Assyrian Church of the East.

But those things cannot rescue one, like Messiah can.

I've tried it all, and only Alaha/YHWH and His Son have what I'm looking for.

And that's where I intend to devote my time and energy.

I hope that that's clear.

Shlama in Yeshua, Albion

Messages In This Thread
Was Jesus Forsaken On The Cross? (Part 1) - by *Albion* - 11-24-2007, 04:06 AM

Forum Jump:

Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)