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Mel Gibson movie "The Passion"
#31
Any other thoughts as to the Aramaic in the movie and how close or far it is from the Peshitta's? Did Fulco do a good job in his reconstruction? Of course, if the Peshitta contains the original words of Jesus and company, the reconstruction is not need at all in the first place. Let's stick to talking about the Aramaic in the movie since the Aramaic primacy of the NT is the purpose of this website and forum. Thanks.
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#32
It is clear that Gibson did not use The Peshitta text; I have read that he had English translated into Aramaic.

Dave B
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#33
As a speaker of both Aramaic and English, I can pretty much tell you that the Aramaic of the movie sounded like it started off as English.

I spoke with Prof. Fulco (who translated the script for Mel Gibson) via email about a year ago. He stated that it was his intention to re-create "as realistically as possible" the "dialect that was probably spoken" at the time and place.

Now, take that for what it's worth. The Aramaic was ok - but not realistic at all, in my opinion.

For instance, during the entire film the word used for "lord" was the Hebrew "Adonai" - EVEN though the Greek versions of the NT themselves testify that the word used at the time was the Aramaic "Mar" (c.f., 1Cor.)

I can't imagine why Prof. Fulco would chose to ignore the testimony of the Greek witnesses, even, that people like Paul of Tarsus used the Aramaic "Mar" for "lord", rather than the Hebrew "Adonai."

All in all, like I said, the Aramaic was ok - but very unrealistic. Why didn't Prof. Fulco use the Peshitta for the translation? Well, think about it! Would he have earned his money by doing so? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#34
Dr George Kiraz understood 60% of the Aramaic in the film.

What about you Paul?
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#35
I don't know, really - about the same amount? There were times when I understood 15 minutes of dialogue without having to look at the sub-titles....there were other times when I was scratching my head for 20 minutes wondering where the heck they reconstructed that Aramaic from.

Both Dr. Kiraz and I would probably understand 100% of the Aramaic in the film.....if we had the DVD and could re-wind and play it s-l-o-w-e-r....for some unknown reason, the actors spoke really, REALLY fast - and that's not how Aramaic-speakers speak the language. We speak very s-l-o-w, with a lot of emphasis on the syllables.

The Italian actors seemed to do the best with the proper pronunciation. Some of the other actors sounded like they were speaking Klingon. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#36
What does Fulco think of the Peshitta?

Does he believe in the Aramaic primacy of the NT?
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#37
I don't think so.

Number 1 - if he did, one would think that he would have used it for the dialogue.

Number 2 - he's a Jesuit Priest.

Number 3 - he's a professor. This is an especially important barrier, as he would not be holding that chair if he went against modern "scholarly consensus."
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#38
So what does he think of the Peshitta? The same standard opinion as most Western scholars?
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#39
Probably.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#40
Here is an interesting article I found at
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.zindamagazine.com/magazine/index.php">http://www.zindamagazine.com/magazine/index.php</a><!-- m -->


Assyrian Doctor Excited after Seeing Mel Gibson's Movie using Aramaic Language

Courtesy of the Times Reporter in Ohio
8 March 2004
By Ryan Karp

Dr. Nashat Gabrail had an advantage over other moviegoers watching Mel Gibson's ???The Passion of the Christ.??? He understood the language spoken in the film and didn't have to rely on the subtitles.
Only approximately four million people in the world speak Aramaic, the ancient, dying language spoken by Jesus and the Hebrews in ???The Passion of the Christ.??? Aramaic was the language of the time period.

Gabrail is hoping the movie, which was expected to earn more than $200 million by Sunday night, revives the Aramaic language and helps to educate people to its history.

???It's very exciting to see a moving picture for the first time in Aramaic,??? he said. ???I was impressed by the actors. They really learned it.???

Gabrail, an oncologist who has a practice in Dover and is a resident of Stark County, is of Assyrian Christian descent, original natives of Mesopotamia, the current Iraq. His native language is Aramaic.

Gabrail was born in Iraq and left in 1981 to teach in Scotland. He arrived in the United States in 1984 and briefly taught at the University of Missouri before relocating to Stark County in 1990. He opened Gabrail Cancer Center in Dover in 2000.

Gabrail said the dialect of Aramaic was so ancient in ???The Passion of the Christ??? that even he had to use the subtitles occasionally, but he said the language was completely accurate.

???I went in with an open mind to criticize, but I didn't see anything. Mel Gibson should be complimented for what he did. He took Scripture and translated it in an honest way into a movie.???

While 4,000,000 people in the world still speak Aramaic, only 200,000 can read it and write it. Gabrail is one of those 200,000.

He said the language diminished because of the dying Assyrian identity, which was denied under the Iraqi government and rulers of Iraq like Saddam Hussein. As time passed, the Aramaic language became spoken less and less. Assyrians were not allowed to speak it in public and were not taught it in schools. They learned it through family and church.

???Before Saddam was removed from power, we were not even allowed to say we were Assyrians,??? said Gabrail. ???Most Iraqis are Assyrian, they just don't know it.???

Gabrail lived under Hussein's leadership for a time when he lived in Iraq. He was not surprised when Hussein was captured and knew it would be a turning point in Iraq.

Now that Hussein is gone, Gabrail hopes they can teach Aramaic in schools again.

The Aramaic language has been kept alive because of the Assyrians' religious faith. The church insisted that the language of prayer and mass remain Aramaic. However, Gabrail thinks it should not have to rely on the church.

???We want our identity intact based on rights, so individuals can say who they are,??? he said.

Gabrail said the United States is concerned about preserving the identity of the Assyrians because the majority of Iraqis are trying to insert the word Islam in the new Iraqi constitution, something Assyrians do not like because they are Christians. Paul Bremmer, the U.S. administrator in Iraq, is a supporter of the Assyrians and is trying to prevent this.

Gabrail also said Congressman Henry Hyde of Illinois wrote a letter to Bush signed by members of Congress. The letter asked the Bush administration to protect the Assyrians' rights.

President Bush recognized preserving the Assyrians' identity in a recent speech he gave. Gabrail said he was excited by the statement.

???The most powerful man in the United States recognized us,??? he said. ???It was like the Fourth of July. We celebrated.???

Gabrail works to preserve the Aramaic language in his own life and to educate others about it. He teaches it to his children. His son Michael, 14, is learning it online.

Gabrail speaks Aramaic with his mother and sister, who still live in Iraq, and other family members.

To bring Assyrian health professionals together, Gabrail established the Assyrian Medical Society.

???The idea is that everyone of us are trying our best to maintain this identity,??? he said.



So most Iraqis are actually Assyrians, they just don't know it. Just like the Egyptians who lost their identity after the Islamization of the Middle East.
One of the first owners of the facsimile of <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0802837867/ref=nosim/ultimyourulti-20"><b>Codex Leningrad</b></a>
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#41
Shlama Akhi Dan,

Iraq is made up of many different ethnic and religious groups. Many of them are from Babylonian and Assyrian descent, even though they consider themselves to be "Arabs" - which some are, of course. There are real Arab tribes there - but for the most part the Arabic-speaking Muslims of Iraq are actually not Arabs.....Arabs are from Arabia. They are merely Arabic speakers and had converted to Islam back when Islamic forces swept Mesopotamia.

Of course, this doesn't include the non-Semitic groups within Iraq like the Kurds and Turcomans.

The Christians of Iraq still maintain their ancient identity (Assyrian) and they speak their native Aramaic at home and with each other at church, etc. But they also learn Arabic because it is the official language of the country.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#42
Shlama Akhi Dan,

Iraq is made up of many different ethnic and religious groups. Many of them are from Babylonian and Assyrian descent, even though they consider themselves to be "Arabs" - which some are, of course. There are real Arab tribes there - but for the most part the Arabic-speaking Muslims of Iraq are actually not Arabs.....Arabs are from Arabia. They are merely Arabic speakers and had converted to Islam back when Islamic forces swept Mesopotamia.

Of course, this doesn't include the non-Semitic groups within Iraq like the Kurds and Turcomans.

The Christians of Iraq still maintain their ancient identity (Assyrian) and they speak their native Aramaic at home and with each other at church, etc. But they also learn Arabic because it is the official language of the country.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#43
Isn't there some debate on the proper way to say Jesus in Aramaic?

YES-SHOE-AH vs. EE-SHOE-AH, or maybe I am just wrong all together?!


I am VERY new at all of this Aramaic and Hebrew, so I may be misunderstanding the way they said it in the movie.


The movie, I thought was very good -- some hardcore people didn't really like it all because it wasn't to the T of the NT, but I think that's okay -- the strong message was ever so present.

Jesus suffered and died for our sins.

But, I agree with some people how I would of like to have seen other important parts of the Gospels protrayed throughout the movie, but then it would probably be a 6 hour movie! (Which I wouldn't mind in the least bit I suppose -- as long as their was breaks)

Skamz
Mark 11:22-24
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#44
SkammyManX Wrote:Isn't there some debate on the proper way to say Jesus in Aramaic?

YES-SHOE-AH vs. EE-SHOE-AH, or maybe I am just wrong all together?!

Hi Skamz,

See http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
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#45
Paul Younan Wrote:
SkammyManX Wrote:Isn't there some debate on the proper way to say Jesus in Aramaic?

YES-SHOE-AH vs. EE-SHOE-AH, or maybe I am just wrong all together?!

Hi Skamz,

See http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645

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Mark 11:22-24
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