Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
book of Hebrews: better from Greek, or Aramaic?
#31
*How should Ps 145:13 read?*
Do you agree with me that the Masoretic somehow dropped one of the lines of the acrostic Ps 145? (a line that is in the Dead Sea Scrolls, LXX, and Peshitta Tanakh)

Psalm 145 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/psalms/145.htm
מ
13 Thy kingdom is a kingdom for all ages,
And Thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
ס
14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall....

Psalm 145 (NIV)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=NIV
13 Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and your dominion endures through all generations.
The Lord is trustworthy in all he promises
and faithful in all he does.[c]
Footnotes:
Psalm 145:1 This psalm is an acrostic poem, the verses of which (including verse 13b) begin with the successive letters of the Hebrew alphabet.
Psalm 145:5 Dead Sea Scrolls and Syriac (see also Septuagint); Masoretic Text On the glorious splendor of your majesty / and on your wonderful works I will meditate
Psalm 145:13 One manuscript of the Masoretic Text, Dead Sea Scrolls and Syriac (see also Septuagint); most manuscripts of the Masoretic Text do not have the last two lines of verse 13.

Psalm 145 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/psalms/145.htm
Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and thy dominion endures through all generations.
The Lord is faithful in his words,
and holy in all his works.

Psalm 145:13 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/PS/ps145.htm
Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
and thy dominion endures throughout all generations.
The LORD is faithful in his words
and righteous in all his works.

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
*How should Gen 4:8 read?*
Do you agree with me that the Masoretic somehow dropped Cain's remark to Abel?

Genesis 4:8 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/genesis/4.htm
And Cain spoke unto Abel his brother.
And it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Genesis 4:8 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/4.htm
And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go out into the plain;
and it came to pass that when they were in the plain Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Genesis 4:8 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/GEN/gen4.htm
And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let us go to the plain;
and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.

Genesis 4:8 (Samaritan Pentateuch), https://www.amazon.com/Israelite-Samarit...802865194/
And Qen told Ehbel his brother, let us go to the field.
And while they were in the field, Qen rose up against Ehbel his brother and killed him.
Reply
#32
"Gd declared is His Son is Israel" Are there any other entities God considers sons?
Job 1 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/job/1.htm
6 Now it fell upon a day, that *the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,* and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan: ‘Whence comest thou?’ Then Satan answered the LORD, and said: ‘From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.’
Job 2:1 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/job/2.htm
Again it fell upon a day, that *the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD,* and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

Genesis 6 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/genesis/6.htm
1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that *the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair;* and they took them wives, whomsoever they chose. 3 And the LORD said: ‘My spirit shall not abide in man for ever, for that he also is flesh; therefore shall his days be a hundred and twenty years.’ 4 The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when *the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bore children to them;* the same were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
5 And the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Reply
#33
*corruption in the Masoretic: did Elhanan slay Goliath, or the brother of Goliath?*
Does anyone here believe the Masoretic's claim that Elhanan killed Goliath?

1 Samuel 17 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/1_samuel/17.htm
48 And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hastened, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine. 49 And David put his hand in his bag, and took thence a stone, and slung it, and smote the Philistine in his forehead; and the stone sank into his forehead, and he fell upon his face to the earth. 50 So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David. 51 And David ran, and stood over the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw that their mighty man was dead, they fled.

Masoretic: Elhanan slew Goliath, vs. Elhanan slew the brother of Goliath -- inconsistent
2 Samuel 21:19 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/2_samuel/21.htm
And there was again war with the Philistines at Gob; and Elhanan the son of Jaare-oregim the Beth-lehemite slew Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.
1 Chronicles 20:5 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/1_chronicles/20.htm
And there was again war with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.

LXX: Eleanan slew Goliath, vs. Eleanan smote the brother of Goliath -- inconsistent
2 Samuel 21:19 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/2_samuel/21.htm
And there was a battle in Rom with the Philistines; and Eleanan son of Ariorgim the Bethleemite slew Goliath the Gittite; and the staff of his spear was as a weaver's beam.
1 Chronicles 20:5 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/1_chronicles/20.htm
And there was war again with the Philistines; and Eleanan the son of Jair smote Lachmi the brother of Goliath the Gittite, and the wood of his spear was as a weavers' beam.

Peshitta Tanakh: Elhanan slew a brother of Goliath, vs. Elhanan slew the brother of Goliath -- *consistent*
2 Samuel 21:19 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/2SA/2sa21.htm
And there was again war between Israel and the Philistines, and Elhanan the son of Malap a weaver, a Beth-lehemite, slew a brother of Goliath the Philistine, the staff of whose spear was like a weaver’s beam.
1 Chronicles 20:5 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/1CH/1ch20.htm
And there was war again with the Philistines; and Elhanan the son of Jair slew Lahmi of the descendants of the giants, who was the brother of Goliath the mighty man of Gath, whose spear staff was like a weaver’s beam.

DSS: its 2 Samuel 21:19 and 1 Chronicles 20:5 are lost to the sands of time.

_Dead Sea Scrolls Bible: The Oldest Known Bible Translated for the First Time into English_, translated and with commentary by Martin Abegg Jr., Peter Flint & Eugene Ulrich (1999), 649pp., 632
The extensive Samuel manuscript, 4QSam^a, frequently varies from the traditional text in large and significant ways, and *half the time its text is to be preferred to the Masoretic Text.* More important, *4QSam^a often agrees with Chronicles, the Septuagint, and the narrative of the historian Flavius Josephus, against the isolated Masoretic* narrative.

Who killed Goliath, David or Elhanan?
https://carm.org/who-killed-goliath-david-or-elhanan
Second, it appears there was a copyist error in 2 Samuel 21:19. According to Gleason Archer's Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties on page 179, it says,
The sign of the direct object, which in Chronicles comes just before "Lahmi," was '-t; the copyist mistook it for b-t or b-y-t ("Beth") and thus got Bet hal-Lahmi ("the Bethlehemite") out of it.
He misread the word for "brother" ('-h) as the sign of the direct object ('-t) right before g-l-y-t ("Goliath"). Thus he made "Goliath" the object of "killed" (wayyak), instead of the "brother" of Goliath (as the Chronicles passage does).
The copyist misplaced the word for "weavers" ('-r-g-ym) so as to put it right after "Elhanan" as his patronymic (ben Y-'-r-y'-r-- g- ym, or ben ya 'arey 'ore - gim -- "the son of the forests of weavers" -- a most unlikely name for anyone's father!). In Chronicles the 'ore grim ("weavers") comes right after menor ("a beam of") -- thus making perfectly good sense.
Reply
#34
Josephus Book 6 chapter 5, and the Dead Sea Scrolls 1 Samuel end of 10 or at start of 11, have material absent from the Masoretic, Peshitta Tanakh, and LXX.
1 Samuel 10 (NRSV), https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...rsion=NRSV
27 But some worthless fellows said, “How can this man save us?” They despised him and brought him no present. But he held his peace.
Now Nahash, king of the Ammonites, had been grievously oppressing the Gadites and the Reubenites. He would gouge out the right eye of each of them and would not grant Israel a deliverer. No one was left of the Israelites across the Jordan whose right eye Nahash, king of the Ammonites, had not gouged out. But there were seven thousand men who had escaped from the Ammonites and had entered Jabesh-gilead.[i]
Footnotes:
i: 1 Samuel 10:27 Q Ms Compare Josephus, _Antiquities_ VI.v.1 (68–71): MT lacks _Now Nahash . . . entered Jabesh-gilead._
Reply
#35
"One question is how should I live my life? Another is where is god now? Why does he not make it unquestionably true he is real to me?.... she has called herself an athiest. I sincerely want to find truth and answers like who is right because jews, christians, and muslims say different things"
As an idea, pursue asking God questions; if you succeed in getting a 2-way conversation going, that should aid your inquiring tremendously.
In my opinion, atheism is idiotic: there's much evidence for biology and the physical world having been created by a super-intellect.
I think Muslims would concede that Jesus is the greatest prophet. Plus, according to Muslim thought, Muhammad is in hell (while Jesus is in heaven). In my opinion, if a religion tells me that by following it I'm headed for hell, something's seriously wrong with that religion.

"like muslims say jesus is not the son of god he is a prophet but christians say he is the son of god and I have read that most jews do not think that jesus is the messiah that christians think he is. I want to know who is right"
I think most Muslims and Judaism-adherents would concede that Jesus was killed because some believed he'd claimed to be God-- and were extremely upset about that. A key question is, Is Jesus God? or was he a myth, a madman, or a big liar?

In my opinion, living one's life according to Judeo-Christian morality is a great way to live, which minimizes hurting others and one's self.
If God made it superabundantly-clear to people that he exists, then we'd be practically forced into following him, much like with what happened to Paul in his Damascus Road experience. God tends to take a more low-key approach in his pursuit of humans' allegiance and love.

"want to read the new testament by tomorrow or very soon I have been spending most of my time reading it today"
Sounds good. The NT was originally in Aramaic, not Greek, but the Greek translation was reasonably-good.

Mark 15 (based on Paul Younan's translation of the original Aramaic), http://dukhrana.com
42. And when it became evening on Friday, which is before the Shabbata, 43. Yosip who was from Ramtha, an honorable counselor who also was waiting for the Kingdom of Allaha, came and took courage and approached Peelatos and requested the body of Yeshua. 44. And Peelatos marveled that he was already dead, and he called the centurion and asked him if he had already died. 45. And when he learned (it), he gave his body to Yosip. 46. And Yosip bought linen cloth and took him down and wrapped him in it and placed him in a grave that was hewn out in the rock. And he rolled a stone upon the door of the grave. 47. And Maryam of Magdala and Maryam the (mother) of Yoseh saw where he was laid.

In my opinion, the Shroud of Turin is a strong piece of evidence that Yeshua the Meshikha lived and was resurrected. The carbon dating of it to the Middle Ages was incorrect, because an appended piece of cloth was tested, not the original Shroud. IMO, the origination of the Shroud of Turin's body image is best explained as being a result of the physics of miracles. What's your explanation for the origination of the Shroud of Turin's body image?
Reply
#36
Re: Isaiah 7:14, do you agree with Rashi that among adherents of Judaism, "some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth"?
From
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo...rashi=true
14 Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
*the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign:* He will give you a sign by Himself, against Your will.
*is with child:* This is actually the future, as we find concerning Manoah’s wife, that the angel said to her (Judges 13:3): “And you shall conceive and bear a son,” and it is written, “Behold, you are with child and shall bear a son.”
*the young woman:* My wife will conceive this year. This was the fourth year of Ahaz.
*and she shall call his name:* Divine inspiration will rest upon her.
*Immanuel:* [lit. God is with us. That is] to say that our Rock shall be with us, and this is the sign, for she is a young girl, and she never prophesied, yet in this instance, Divine inspiration shall rest upon her. This is what is stated below (8:3): “And I was intimate with the prophetess, etc.,” and we do not find a prophet’s wife called a prophetess unless she prophesied. Some interpret this as being said about Hezekiah, but it is impossible, because, when you count his years, you find that Hezekiah was born nine years before his father’s reign. And some interpret that this is the sign, that she was a young girl and incapable of giving birth.
Reply
#37
Do you believe that 1 individual was named both "Immanuel... ‘God is with us” and also named “'Maher-shalal-hash-baz'... the spoil speeds the prey hastens"?
From
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/art...gin-birth/
....and God said to me: Name the child “Maher-shalal-hash-baz” which means (the spoil speeds the prey hastens). ....
Clearly, the woman mentioned in Isaiah 7:14 and 8:3-4 are one and the same and that she is Isaiah’s wife. ....
....is told that the sign will be the birth of a child from the young woman who will call the child (Immanuel –עמנואל).[4] Although this name mean ‘God is with us” it does not mean that the child will be divine.
Reply
#38
"Some of the 613 Commandments are for when there is a Temple"
Were any of those "commandments... for when there is a Temple" followed *before* there was a Temple?
If 'yes,' for what reason(s) are they not being followed today?

What do you make of the scarlet-dyed wool not turning white for 40 years?
From https://www.equip.org/article/the-jewish...ologetics/
In Tractate Yoma 39b, the Talmud…discusses numerous remarkable phenomena that occurred in the Temple during the Yom Kippur service…. There was a strip of scarlet-dyed wool tied to the head of the scapegoat which would turn white in the presence of the large crowd gathered at the Temple on the Day of Atonement. The Jewish people perceived this miraculous transformation as a heavenly sign that their sins were forgiven. The Talmud relates, however, that 40 years before the destruction of the second Temple [approximately AD 30 at the time of the Crucifixion] the scarlet colored strip of wool did not turn white.11

What do you make of the lot always coming up in the left hand for 40 years?
From https://windowview.org/hmny/pgs/talmuds.30ce.html
We read in the Jerusalem Talmud:
"Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the western light went out, the crimson thread remained crimson, and the lot for the Lord always came up in the left hand. They would close the gates of the Temple by night and get up in the morning and find them wide open" (Jacob Neusner, The Yerushalmi, p.156-157). [the Temple was destroyed in 70 CE]
A similar passage in the Babylonian Talmud states:
"Our rabbis taught: During the last forty years before the destruction of the Temple the lot ['For the Lord'] did not come up in the right hand; nor did the crimson-colored strap become white; nor did the western most light shine; and the doors of the Hekel [Temple] would open by themselves" (Soncino version, Yoma 39b).
....
The lot chosen determined which of two goats would be "for the Lord" and which goat would be the ''Azazel'' or ''scapegoat.'' During the two hundred years before 30 CE, when the High Priest picked one of two stones, again this selection was governed by chance, and each year the priest would select a black stone as often as a white stone. But for forty years in a row, beginning in 30 CE, the High Priest always picked the black stone! The odds against this happening are astronomical (2 to the 40th power). In other words, the chances of this occurring are 1 in approximately 1,099,511,627,776 — or over one trillion to one! .... The lot for Azazel, the black stone, contrary to all the laws of chance, came up 40 times in a row from 30 to 70 AD!

What's your take on Zech 12:12?
From
https://www.equip.org/article/the-jewish...ologetics/
And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart [Zech. 12:12]… What is the cause of the mourning mentioned in the last cited verse? — R. Dosa and the Rabbis differ on the point. One explained, The cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, and the other explained, The cause is the slaying of the Evil Inclination. It is well according to him who explains that the cause is the slaying of Messiah the son of Joseph, since that well agrees with the Scriptural verse, And they shall look upon me because they have thrust him through, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son. (Sukkah 52A5)

"I spend a lot of time 'thinking about' all the Jews killed over all these centuries by"
God cursed those that would come against practitioners of Judaism, and at the time of Yeshua the Meshikha's crucifixion, practitioners of Judaism cursed themselves and their children during the killing of the innocent Yeshua the Meshikha. Have you pondered the effect on history of the interplay of those 2 curses?

"Maybe try a little LESS worshipping a dead guy?"
Yeshua the Meshikha died, but then he rose from the dead.
For Daniel chapters 2-7 and Ezra chapters 4-7, what language(s) are "the Torah Scrolls written in"?
Reply
#39
David. What are you doing this for?
Reply
#40
"What are you doing this for?" I'm doing this as part of an effort at https://youtu.be/oxfSkpS7PUY
to tell adherents of Judaism about the Peshitta.

"the NT was originally in Koine Greek" Evidence? Quoting biblica.com and CARM remarks saying the NT was originally in Greek, and quoting a remark about the number of existing Greek NT mss., isn't *evidence* that "the NT was originally in Koine Greek." The Greek grammar of Revelation is atrociously bad. What's some *_evidence_* that Revelation was originally in Greek?

Christopher Lancaster aka "Raphael Lataster," _Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek? A Concise Compendium of the Many Internal and External Evidences of Aramaic Peshitta Primacy_ (2011), 328pp., 138-139. Cited at URL below, and tweaked to more closely conform to how it appears in Lancaster.
https://jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2...testament/
In addition to the evidence for Semitic grammar embedded in the Greek New Testament, the fact that serious grammatical errors are found in the Greek New Testament books should also be revealed. Speaking of the Greek of Revelation, Charles Cutler Torrey states that it “...swarms with major offenses against Greek grammar.” He calls it “linguistic anarchy”, and says, “The grammatical monstrosities of the book, in their number and variety and especially in their startling character, stand alone in the history of literature.” Torrey gives ten examples listed below:
1. Rev. 1:4 “Grace to you, and peace, from he who is and who was and who is to come.” (all nom. case)
2. Rev. 1:15 “His legs were like burnished brass (neutral gender dative case), as in a furnace purified" (Fem. gender sing. no., gen. case)
3. Rev. 11:3 “My witness (nom.) shall prophesy for many days clothed (accus.) in sackcloth.”
4. Rev. 14:14 “I saw on the cloud, one seated like unto a Son of Man (accus.) having
(nom.) upon his head a golden crown.”
5. Rev. 14:19 “He harvested the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress
(fem), the great (masc.) of the wrath of God.”
6. Rev. 17:4 “A golden cup filled with abominations (gen.) and with unclean things” (accus.)
7. Rev. 19:20 “The lake of blazing (fem.) fire (neutral).”
8. Rev. 20:2 “And he seized the dragon (accus.), the old serpent (nom.), who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him.”
9. Rev. 21:9 “Seven angels holding seven bowls (accus.), filled (gen.) with the seven last plagues.”
10. Rev. 22:5 “They have no need of lamplight (gen.) nor of sunlight (accus.).

David Robert Palmer, The Revelation of John, part of The Holy Bible, The Ancient Greek Text, alternating verse by verse with A new English translation from the Greek, with translator's footnotes and Greek textual variant footnotes (May 2017)
http://bibletranslation.ws/palmer-translation/
PDF:
http://www.bibletranslation.ws/trans/revwgrk.pdf
170 10:1b The Greek word here, πους, is the word for feet, but in ancient Greek and many other languages the words for foot or for hand (χειρ) can mean the whole extremity or whole limb. That is especially true in Revelation, which displays much Aramaic influence. It is far more appropriate here to speak of a leg being like a column or pillar than a foot being like a column or pillar.
....
246 13:16b .... An Aramaism is an unusual and rare occurrence, and I think the burden of proof that it is occurring, is on the one saying it is. That said, I have come to believe that Revelation does show an Aramaic mind in its author. For example, though even ancient Greek the words for foot πούς and hand χείρ originally meant the whole limb, not just the foot and hand, this is most definitely always true in Hebrew and Aramaic. The author of Revelation uses πούς, “foot” to mean the whole limb, where he says the feet of the angel were like “columns” of fire Legs are like columns, and feet are not. Therefore similarly, we must conclude that in Revelation 13:16, with χείρ the author means anywhere on the entire upper right limb, not just the hand.


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
"Isaiah 7:14 – A Virgin Birth?" by Rabbi Bentzion Kravitz
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/art...gin-birth/
[1] A careful comparison of Jesus’ genealogy listed in the book of Luke provides as good example of how the gospels contradict one another. Additionally, Matthew’s genealogical list proves Jesus could not be the promised messiah because he is not from the tribe of Judah, a messianic requirement (Genesis 49:10) transmitted solely by one biological father (Numbers 1:18). Luke’s genealogy proves that Jesus could not be the Messiah because he is not a descendant of King David through his son Solomon, another messianic requirement (2 Samuel 7:12‑16 and 1 Chronicles 22:9‑10)

Yeshua the Meshikha was descended from King David on his mother's side (see Mt 1) and on his stepdad's side (see Lk 3). Greek translators of the original Aramaic botched translating a word in Mt 1; in reality, Mary had a father-figure named Joseph, in addition to her husband Joseph. Correctly translating Mt 1 results in the absence of contradiction with Lk 3. Yeshua is a descendant of Yehuda/ Judah, and of King David, and of Solomon:

Matthew 1, based on Paul Younan's translation of the original Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
1. The kethaba [book] of the genealogy of Yeshua [Life/ Salvation] the Meshikha [Anointed One, i.e. Messiah] the Son of Dawid, the son of Awraham:
2. Awraham fathered Aeskhaq.
Aeskhaq fathered Yaqub.
*Yaqub fathered Yehuda and his brothers.*
3. Yehuda fathered Pares and Zarakh by Thamar.
Pares fathered Khisron.
4. Kishron fathered Aram.
Aram fathered Amenadab.
Amenadab fathered Nikhshon.
5. Nikhshon fathered Salmon.
Salmon fathered Baz by Rakhab.
Baz fathered Awbed by Rawth.
Awbed fathered Aeshe.
6. *Aeshe fathered Dawid the malka [king].*
*Dawid fathered Shlemon by the wife of Awrea.*
7. Shlemon fathered Rkhebam.
Rkhebam fathered Abea.
Abea fathered Asa.
8. Asa fathered Yahoshapat.
Yahoshapat fathered Yoram.
Yoram fathered Awazea.
9. Awazea fathered Yotham.
Yotham fathered Akhaz.
Akahaz fathered Khizaqea.
10. Khizaqea fathered Mnashe.
Manashe fathered Amon.
Amon fathered Yoshea.

11. Yoshea fathered Yokhanea and his brothers in the captivity of Babel.

12. Now, and after the captivity of Babel, Yokhanea fathered Shilathel.
Shilathel fathered Zerubabel.
13. Zerubabel fathered Awiud.
Awiud fathered Eleakem.
Eleakem fathered Azor.
14. Azor fathered Zadoq.
Zadoq fathered Akhen.
Akhen fathered Eleud.
15. Eleud fathered Eleazer. Eleazer fathered
Matan. Matan fathered
Yaqub. 16. Yaqub fathered
Yosip, the gowra [protective-male] of
Maryam, from whom was born
Yeshua, who is called the Meshikha.
[Pronounced "gowra," GBRA literally means 'protective male.' It is unclear whether the text refers to Maryam's father or to her husband. --PY. PY had 'kinsman.' Roth used 'guardian.' Mt says it is 14 + 14 + 14 generations in the next paragraph, verse 17. The Josip in the paragraph starting with verse 18 is a different Josip. Interestingly, the next paragraph, paragraph 18, opens with a thought-switcher. Observes Lataster about thought-switchers,
"Another Aramaic word which causes problems for translators is Nyd which really has no equivalent in English, but it is more of a 'thought-switcher' - some English words come close to translating it - like 'And, For, But, Now, However'." - Lataster, 115. See also Younan's article "Mistranslating the Genealogies of Yeshua" in Lataster.]

17. Therefore, all the generations from Awraham until Dawid (were) fourteen generations,
and from Dawid until the captivity of Babel (were) fourteen generations,
and from the captivity of Babel until the Meshikha (were) fourteen generations.

Luke 3
23. And Yeshua was about thirty years old and he was thought to be the son of Yosip, the son of Heli, 24. the son of Mattath the son of Lewi, the son of Malki, the son of Yani, the son of Yosip, 25. the son of Matta, the son of Amos, the son of Nakhum, the son of Khasli, the son of Nagi, the son of Maath, the son of Matath, the son of Shamei, the son of Yosip, the son of Yehuda, 27. the son of Yukhanan, the son of Rasa, the son of Zerubabel, the son of Shilathiel, the son of Neri, 28. the son of Malki, the son of Addi, the son of Qusam, the son of Almodad, the son of Ayir, 29. the son of Yoseh, the son of Eliazar, the son of Yoram, the son of Matitha, the son of Lewi, 30. the son of Shimon, the son of Yehuda, the son of Yosip, the son of Yonam, the son of Eliakim, 31. the son of Malia, the son of Manni, the son of Mattha, the son of Nathan, *the son of Dawid,* 32. the son of Aishi, the son of Obed, the son of Baz, the son of Salmon, the son of Nikhshon, 33. the son of Aminadab, the son of Aram, the son of Khisron, the son of Pares, *the son of Yehuda, 34. the son of Yaqub,* the son of Iskhaq, the son of Awraham, the son of Terakh, the son of Nakhor, 35. the son of Sarug, the son of Araw, the son of Palag, the son of Awar, the son of Shalakh, 36. the son of Qaynan, the son of Arpakshar, the son of Shem, the son of Nukh, the son of Lamakh, 37. the son of Mathushlakh, the son of Knokh, the son of Yared, the son of Mahlalaiel, the son of Qaynan, 38. the son of Anosh, the son of Sheth, the son of Adam, who (was) from Allaha.

Lataster PDF:
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/pd...ngreek.pdf
Reply
#41
David... That Rabbi Tovia Singer guy made a major blunder in that video you pointed me to. Listen to his words there about Proverbs 30:19-20. For one, he is mistaken about both words for woman there in the Hebrew in those two verses that they are the same word...they are not. And the two verses are not even speaking about the same type of woman at all, as he again makes a mistaken assumption. Plus, his visual of the text he is commenting on there, and making is huge blunder, is not even the text of the King James Version!

This guy is really dumb, or he is trying to deceive people with lies. I will give him the benefit of the doubt on both options I give there, and say he is very careless in his teaching.


.
Reply
#42
"ditch the dead guy and worship the Creator and Him Alone"
Yes, Yeshua the Meshikha died, but then he rose again, and is currently alive. Yeshua the Meshikha *is* the Creator.

John 1, based on Paul Younan's translation of the original Aramaic, http://dukhrana.com
1. In the beginning was the Miltha,
and that Miltha was with Allaha,
and Allaha was that Miltha.
2. This was with Allaha in the beginning.
3. Everything existed through His hands,
and (of) the things which have existed,
without Him not even one (thing) existed.
4. In Him was life,
and the life was the nuhra [light] of men.
5. And that nuhra shines in the darkness,
and the darkness did not overtake it.

6. There was a man who was sent from Allaha
(whose) name was Yukhanan.
7. This (man) came for a witness,
that he might testify concerning the nuhra,
that all might believe through his hand.
8. He was not the nuhra,
rather (he came) that he might bear witness concerning the nuhra.
9. For the nuhra of truth was that which shines
on all who come into the ailma [world].
10. He was in the ailma,
and the ailma existed by his hand,
and the ailma did not know him;
11. he came to his own,
and his own did not receive him.
12. But those who did receive him,
those who have believed in his name,
he gave to them shultana [authority] that they might be the sons of Allaha,
13. those who neither by blood
nor by the will of the flesh
nor by the will of a man,
rather were begotten by Allaha.
14. And the Miltha became flesh and dwelt among us,
and we saw shubkheh [his glory],
the shubkha [glory] as Ekhadaya [literally: THE ONE, i.e. the Only-Begotten],
who is from Abba [the Father],
who is full of grace and truth.

[When use in a theological sense, Ekhadaya is a beautiful theological term employed by many Eastern theologians and poets. It literally means "THE ONE."-- PY
Miltha: typically "word/ Word." It has no direct English equivalent, and can mean: word, saying, question, manifestation, instance, or substance, among many other things. In the context of John 1:1, 1:14, 5:38, and 10:35, it may be best left untranslated. -- PY]

///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Re: 3:45+ at https://youtu.be/oxfSkpS7PUY?t=3m43s
1) Rabbi Singer criticizes the KJV, but the graphic at 4:00 *isn't* of the KJV.
2) at 4:23: "the same exact word" That's incorrect:
Proverbs 30:19, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/proverbs/30-19.htm
The way of an eagle in the air
the way of a serpent on a rock
the way of a ship in the midst of the sea
and the way of a man with a virgin [bə·‘al·māh: בְּעַלְמָֽה׃]
Proverbs 30:20, https://biblehub.com/interlinear/proverbs/30-20.htm
This [is] the way of an woman [’iš·šāh, אִשָּׁ֗ה] adulterous [mə·nā·’ā·p̄eṯ, מְנָ֫אָ֥פֶת]
she eats and wipes her mouth
and says no I have done wickedness

Hat tip: Thirdwoe.
Reply
#43
"Earliest NT ever found are the koine Greek NT Papyrus fragments from 125ce on. Please show me Aramaic versions earlier"
I'm unaware of the existence of Aramaic NT fragments earlier than that.
But I do know that the Greek NT has mistranslation errors consistent with it being a translation from Aramaic. 3rd post down at:
Mistranslations in Your New Testament Translated From Greek,
Which Was Translated From the Original Aramaic
http://tentmaker.org/forum/judgement-and...nslations/

And I know that the 4 gospels existed in Aramaic at the latest as of A.D. 175, because Tatian's Diatesseron quoted 95%+ of them, and Tatian died around A.D. 175.

"1John 5:7-8 (Trinity, Johaninne Commanuem debate), John 7:53,8:10. Mark 16:9-20 hundreds more not in koine Greek NT Papyrus scriptures"
I agree that the Johaninne Comma and the story of Jesus and the adulterous woman weren't in the original NT, since they aren't in the Peshitta NT.
Mark 16:9-20:
Regarding the 'long ending of Mark,' the Diatesseron shows that practically all of it was present as of A.D. 175. It's also in the original Aramaic of the Peshitta.

The HCSB notes that concerning Mark 16:9-20, "other mss omit" it.

The Peshitta has the text for Mark 16:9-20, with the exception that it lacks the addition of "with their hands" in verse 18. Here's that addition:
Mark 16:18 (HCSB)
they will pick up snakes;[a: Other mss add _with their hands_]

Below is the Peshitta's Mark16:9-20, interleaved with corresponding Diatesseron extracts where applicable.

Peshitta Mark 16:9 (based on Younan of Peshitta.org)
And at early morning on the first of the week he had risen
and appeared first to Maryam of Magdala,
she that from whom he had cast out seven shadiyn [devils].

Compare:
Diatesseron 53:25
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.liii.html
And on the First-day on which he rose,
he appeared first unto Mary Magdalene,
from whom he had cast out seven demons.

Peshitta Mark 16:10
And she went (and) sebarth [brought hope]
to those who had been with him,
who were mourning and weeping.
Compare
Diatesseron 53:35
And those women returned, and told all that
to the eleven, and to the rest of the disciples;
and to those that had been with him,
for they were saddened and weeping.

Peshitta Mark 16:11
And when they heard what they were saying,
that he was alive and had appeared to them,
they did not believe them.

Compare:
Diatesseron 53:37
And they, when they heard them say
that he was alive and had appeared unto them,
did not believe them:

Peshitta Mark 16:12
After these things,
he appeared to two of them in another form
while they were walking and going to a village.

Compare:
Diatesseron 53:39
And after that,
he appeared to two of them, on that day,
and while they were going to the village. . . .

Peshitta Mark 16:13
And those went (and) told the rest, (and) they did not even believe them.

Peshitta Mark 16:14
And finally he appeared to the eleven while they were reclining,
and he reviled the lack of their faith
and the hardness of their hearts,
since those who had seen him, that he had risen,
they did not believe them.

Compare:
Diatesseron 55:3
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.lv.html
And while they sat there he appeared to them again,
and upbraided them for their lack of faith
and the hardness of their hearts,
those that saw him when he was risen,
and believed not.

Peshitta Mark 16:15a
And he said to them,
Compare:
Diatesseron 55:4
Then said Jesus unto them,. . . .

Peshitta Mark 16:15b
"Go into all the ailma [world]
and preach my Sebartha [Message/ Hope] to all of creation.
Compare:
Diatesseron 55:5
Go now into all the world,
and preach my gospel in all the creation;

Peshitta Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will live,
and whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Compare
Diatesseron 55:8
For whosoever believeth and is baptized shall be saved;
but whosoever believeth not shall be rejected.

Peshitta Mark 16:17-18
And these signs will follow those who believe:
in my name they will cast out shada [devils]
and they will speak in new tongues,
and they will handle serpents,
and if they should drink a deadly poison
it will not harm them.
And they will place their hands on the sick,
and they will be healed."

Compare:
Diatesseron 55:9-10
And the signs which shall attend those that believe in me are these:
that they shall cast out devils in my name;
and they shall speak with new tongues;
and they shall take up serpents,
and if they drink deadly poison,
it shall not injure them;
and they shall lay their hands on the diseased,
and they shall be healed.

Peshitta Mark 16:19
And Maran [our Lord] Yeshua,
after speaking with them,
went up to heaven
and sat at the right hand of Allaha.

Compare:
Diatesseron 55:12-13
And our Lord Jesus,
after speaking to them. . .
ascended into heaven,
and sat down at the right hand of God.

Peshitta Mark 16:20
And they went out
and preached in all places.
And Maran was helping them
and establishing their words by the signs that they were doing.

Compare:
Diatesseron 55:16
And from thence they went forth,
and preached in every place;
and our Lord helped them,
and confirmed their sayings by the signs which they did.
Reply
#44
*What has the best rendition of 2 Samuel 4:6-7? the Masoretic? LXX? Peshitta Tanakh?*

In his _The David Story_, 218, Robert Alter notes that the Masoretic Text "at this point is simply not viable." It literally reads, "and they [feminine pronoun!] came into the midst of the house, taking wheat [?], and they struck him in the belly, and Rechab and Baanah his brother got away." See
https://preview.tinyurl.com/yxeg3sz2
which redirects to
https://books.google.com/books?id=iYjlHa...g=PA218&dq="the+woman+who+kept+the+gate"&source=bl&ots=VEMYq_bJHi&sig=ACfU3U23y3vBrYvhVsAPaxHhTnl36ii4IQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwizk6Ldt5bhAhXyuFkKHQgTAy0Q6AEwAXoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q="the%20woman%20who%20kept%20the%20gate"&f=false

2 Samuel 4 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/2_samuel/4.htm
5 And the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab and Baanah, went, and came about the heat of the day to the house of Ish-bosheth, as he took his rest at noon.
6 And they came thither into the midst of the house, as though they would have fetched wheat; and they smote him in the groin; and Rechab and Baanah his brother escaped.
7 Now when they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bed-chamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him, and took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night.
8 And they brought the head of Ish-bosheth unto David to Hebron....

2 Samuel 4 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/2_samuel/4.htm
5 And Rechab and Baana the sons of Remmon the Berothite went, and they came in the heat of the day into the house of Jebosthe; and he was sleeping on a bed at noon.
6 And, behold, the porter of the house winnowed wheat, and he slumbered and slept: and the brothers Rechab and Baana went privily into the house:
7 And Jebosthe was sleeping on his bed in his chamber: and they smite him, and slay him, and take off his head: and they took his head, and went all the night by the western road.
8 And they brought the head of Jebosthe to David to Chebron....

2 Samuel 4 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/2SA/2sa4.htm
5 And the sons of Rimmon the Beerothite, Rechab and Baana, went, and came about the heat of the day to the house of Ashbashul as he was taking his noontide rest.
6 And behold, they came into the midst of the house;
then those sons of wickedness took and smote him in his abdomen;
and Rechab and Banna his brother escaped.
7 For when they came into the house, he was lying on his bed in his bedchamber, and they smote him and slew him and beheaded him, and took his head and fled by the way of the plain all night.
8 And they brought the head of Ashbashul to David at Hebron....

DSS: no data-- lost to the sands of time.
Reply
#45
When did Ezekiel 34:23-24 occur? What's the identity of that servant, shepherd, and prince?
When was 34:25's "covenant of peace" implemented?
Re: Ezekiel 37:24-25's "And My servant David shall be king over them.... David My servant shall be their prince for ever," when did that ruler come?
Re: 37:26's "I will make a covenant of peace with them—it shall be an everlasting covenant with them," when was that implemented?
Re: 37:26,28's "I... will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever.... My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever," when did that commence?

Ezekiel 34 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/EZK/ezk34.htm
9 Therefore, O you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD:
10 Thus says the LORD God: Behold, I am against the shepherds;
and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding my flock again;
and I will deliver my sheep from their mouth, that they may not be food for them any more. ....
23 *And I will set up one shepherd over them,*
*and he shall feed them, even my servant David;*
*he shall feed them and shall be their shepherd.*
24 *And I the LORD will be their God,*
*and my servant David shall be a prince among them;*
25 *And I will make with them a covenant of peace,*
and will cause evil beasts to cease from the land;
and they shall dwell safely in the desert and sleep in the forest. ....
30 *And they shall know that I am the LORD their God*
and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, says the LORD God.
31 And you are my sheep, the flock of my pasture;
you are men, and I am your God, says the LORD.

Ezekiel 37 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/ezekiel/37.htm
19 say into them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his companions; and I will put them unto him together with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in My hand. 20 And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thy hand before their eyes.
21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and *one king shall be king to them all;* and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but *I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God.* 24 *And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd;* they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children’s children, for ever; and *David My servant shall be their prince for ever.* 26 Moreover *I will make a covenant of peace with them—it shall be an everlasting covenant with them;* and I will establish them, and multiply them, *and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever.* 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 And *the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel,* when *My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.’*

"Daniel speaks of an anointed one who is cut off, that was King Agrippa the last anointed King of Judah, there has not been a king to sit upon David's throne since him, as the House of David is cut off until the time of Moshiach"
Does anyone here disagree with Genesis 49:10?

Genesis 49:10 (Peshitta Tanakh, Lamsa translation), http://superbook.org/LAMSA/GEN/gen49.htm
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
nor a lawgiver from between his feet,
until the coming of the One to whom the sceptre belongs,
to whom the Gentiles shall look forward.

Genesis 49:10 (Peshitta Tanakh, David Bauscher translation),
http://www.lulu.com/shop/david-bauscher/...08886.html
http://www.lulu.com/shop/rev-david-bausc...26817.html
the scepter will not depart from Yehuda
nor a Prophet from between his feet,
until he will come whose it is,
and the nations will look for him.

Genesis 49:10 (JPS Tanakh 1917), https://biblehub.com/jps/genesis/49.htm
The sceptre shall not depart from Judah,
Nor the ruler’s staff from between his feet,
As long as men come to Shiloh;
And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be.

Genesis 49:10 (Brenton Septuagint Translation), https://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/49.htm
A ruler shall not fail from Juda,
nor a prince from his loins,
until there come the things stored up for him;
and he is the expectation of nations.

Genesis 49:10 (Samaritan Pentateuch), 119, https://www.amazon.com/Israelite-Samarit...802865194/
A tribe shall not depart from Ye'ooda,
and a legislator from between his flags,
until Sheelah comes.
And to him the nations will be surrendered.

Robert Alter, _Genesis: Translation and Commentary_, 295
https://books.google.com/books?id=QMLGGh...g=PA295&dq
_that tribute to him may come._ This is a notorious crux. The Masoretic Text seems to read “until he comes to Shiloh,” a dark phrase that has inspired much messianic interpretation. The present translation follows an exegetical tradition that goes back to the Middle Ages, which breaks up the word “Shiloh” and vocalizes it differently as _shai lo._

from
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_Agrippa
Herod Agrippa, also known as Herod or Agrippa I (Hebrew: אגריפס; 11 BC – 44 AD), was a King of Judea from 41 to 44 AD. He was the last ruler with the royal title reigning over Judea and the father of Herod Agrippa II, the last King from the Herodian dynasty. The grandson of Herod the Great and son of Aristobulus IV and Berenice,[1] He is the king named Herod in the Acts of the Apostles 12:1 (Acts 12:1)....

*Rashi on Gen 49:10*
Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 49
https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo...rashi=true
The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor the student of the law from between his feet, until Shiloh comes, and to him will be a gathering of peoples. ילֹֽא־יָס֥וּר שֵׁ֨בֶט֙ מִֽיהוּדָ֔ה וּמְחֹקֵ֖ק מִבֵּ֣ין רַגְלָ֑יו עַ֚ד כִּֽי־יָבֹ֣א שִׁילֹ֔ה וְל֖וֹ יִקְּהַ֥ת עַמִּֽים:
The scepter shall not depart from Judah: from David and thereafter. These (who bear the scepter after the termination of the kingdom) are the exilarchs (princes) in Babylon, who ruled over the people with a scepter, [and] who were appointed by royal mandate. — [From Sanh. 5a]
לא יסור שבט מיהודה: מדוד ואילך, אלו ראשי גליות שבבבל שרודים את העם בשבט שממונים על פי המלכות:
nor the student of the law from between his feet: Students. These are the princes of the land of Israel. — [From Sanh. 5a]

ומחקק מבין רגליו: תלמידים, אלו נשיאי ארץ ישראל:
*until Shiloh comes: [This refers to] the King Messiah, to whom the kingdom belongs (שֶׁלוֹ), and so did Onkelos render it: [until the Messiah comes, to whom the kingdom belongs].* According to the Midrash Aggadah, [“Shiloh” is a combination of] שַׁי לוֹ, a gift to him, as it is said: “they will bring a gift to him who is to be feared” (Ps. 76:12). - [From Gen. Rabbah ed. Theodore-Albeck p. 1210 ]

עד כי יבא שילה: מלך המשיח שהמלוכה שלו, וכן תרגם אנקלוס. ומדרש אגדה שילו, שי לו, שנאמר (תהלים עו יב) יובילו שי למורא:
and to him will be a gathering of peoples: Heb. יִקְּהַת עַמִּים denoting a gathering of peoples, for the“yud” of (יִקְּהַת) is part of the root [and not a prefix], like “with your brightness (יִפְעָת‏ֶ)” (Ezek. 28: 17), and sometimes [the “yud” is] omitted. Many letters are subject to this rule, and they are called defective roots, like the“nun” of נוֹגֵף (smite), נוֹשׁ⁠‏ֵ (bite), and the “aleph” of“and my speech (אַחְוָתִי) in your ears” (Job 13:17); and [the “aleph”] of“the scream of (אִבְחַת) the sword” (Ezek. 21:20); and [the “aleph”] of“a jug (אָסוּ⁠‏) of oil” (II Kings 4:2). *This too, is [a noun meaning] a gathering of peoples, [meaning: a number of nations who unite to serve God and join under the banner of the King Messiah] as it is said: “to him shall the nations inquire” (Isa. 11:10).* Similar to this is “The eye that mocks the father and despises the mother’s wrinkles (לְיִקְּהַת אֵם)” (Prov. 30:17), [i.e., meaning] the gathering of wrinkles in her face, due to her old age. And in the Talmud [we find]: “were sitting and gathering assemblies וּמַקְהו ֹאַקְהָתָא in the streets of Nehardea” [Pumbeditha] in Tractate Yebamtoh (110b). He (Jacob) could also have said: קְהִיּת עַמִּים [Since the“yud” of יִקְהַת is not a prefix denoting the third person masculine singular, but is a defective root, the form קְהִיּת עַמִּים would be just as appropriate.]- [From Gen. Rabbah 98:9]

_The Targums of Onkelos and Jonathan Ben Uzziel on the Pentateuch with the Fragments of the Jerusalem Targum from the Chaldee,_ by J. W. Etheridge (1862)
http://targum.info/pj/pjgen47-50.htm
which is linked to from
http://targum.info/targumic-texts/pentat...-targumim/
*Kings shall not cease, nor rulers, from the house of Jehuda,* nor sapherim teaching the law from his seed, *till the time that the King the Meshiha, shall come,* the youngest of his sons; and on account of him shall the peoples flow together. *How beauteous is the King, the Meshiha who will arise from the house of Jehuda!* He hath girded his loins, and descended, and arrayed the battle against his adversaries, Slaying kings with their rulers; *neither is there any king or ruler who shall stand before him.* The mountains become red with the blood of their slain; his garments, dipped in blood, are like the outpressed juice of grapes. How beautiful are the eyes of the king Meshiha, as the pure wine! He cannot look upon what is unclean, nor on the shedding of the blood of the innocent; and his teeth, purer than milk, cannot eat that which is stolen or torn; and therefore his mountains are red with wine, and his hills white with corn, and with the cotes of flocks.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)