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tongues vs languages
#16
And would angels mutter and clutter and stutter? Khaslee, they would not. Paul is making a statement that even if he spoke these languages that they would mean nothing without love.
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#17
God, through His Apostle says that these spirtual languages should not be used in The Church setting, unless it is for the edification of the people present...and must be accompanied with an interpretation given by the Holy Spirit.

"So then (spiritual) languages are established for a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers, but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe." 1 Cor 14:22

And even right preaching or teaching, without love, is no good.

"...And if I have prophecy, and I know all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so that I may remove mountains, and I have no love in me, I would be nothing. And if I should feed everything that I have to the poor, and if I hand over my body to be burned up and I have no love in me, I gain nothing." 1 Cor 13:2-3

I have never heard someone who claimed to speak in spiritual tongues condemn those who do not. There may be some who have, but I have never seen it or heard it taught anywhere.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#18
Thirdwoe Wrote:God, through His Apostle says that these spirtual languages should not be used in The Church setting, unless it is for the edification of the people present...and must be accompanied with an interpretation given by the Holy Spirit.

"So then (spiritual) languages are established for a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers, but prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for those who believe." 1 Cor 14:22

And even right preaching or teaching, without love, is no good.

"...And if I have prophecy, and I know all mysteries and all knowledge and if I have all faith so that I may remove mountains, and I have no love in me, I would be nothing. And if I should feed everything that I have to the poor, and if I hand over my body to be burned up and I have no love in me, I gain nothing." 1 Cor 13:2-3

I have never heard someone who claimed to speak in spiritual tongues condemn those who do not. There may be some who have, but I have never seen it or heard it taught anywhere.

Shlama,
Chuck


Shlama,

i have heard people who use ecstatic tongues speak down towards those who do not. i've been around those who look at people who do not as "poor" or "second class," basing it on the idea that tongues is the least of the gifts, so if you don't have even the least, you are immature and almost ineffective as a believer. there was some alienation to a degree in one church i attended that wanted people to sing in tongues during worship... leaving out anyone present who did not have that "gift." i spent time in nondenominational charismatic churches who held this view, though a Church of God Pentecostal congregation i attended where i met my bride did not teach this, so it is not a portrait of all who use ecstatic tongues, to be fair.

to me, the best route is to let the person worship as they see fit, and don't use spiritual gifts to determine anyone's status as a believer, or their effectiveness. i would spiritual fruit would be the key determination in a person's walk as to whether they were mature or not. hopefully we can trsut the leading of the Spirit to guide His people appropriately for the specific circumstance and time, and not abuse what He has shown us by forcing it on others.


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#19
Amen to that Jeremy.

And as God teaches the Corinthians, and perhaps us today as well on this matter, through His Apostle Paul...not all His People speak with tongues, or Holy Spirit gifted languages. Which seems to me to say...that one does not need to have this gift, to either be acceptable to God, or used by Him in other gifts of God's Spirit, for the edifying and well being of His People.

But even if these may be some of the "tares" in the field, we are instructed by the Messiah to allow them grow up among the "wheat" in the field (the world) until the harvest...and then God will do the seperating of the "wheat" and "chaff"...the "sheep" and "goats". If we try to pull the "weeds" (the planting of the enemy) up before then, we may pull up some of God's crop, that are attached, or close to them as well...

Shlama,
Chuck
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#20
Thirdwoe Wrote:Amen to that Jeremy.

And as God teaches the Corinthians, and perhaps us today as well on this matter, through His Apostle Paul...not all His People speak with tongues, or Holy Spirit gifted languages. Which seems to me to say...that one does not need to have this gift, to either be acceptable to God, or used by Him in other gifts of God's Spirit, for the edifying and well being of His People.

But even if these may be some of the "tares" in the field, we are instructed by the Messiah to allow them grow up among the "wheat" in the field (the world) until the harvest...and then God will do the seperating of the "wheat" and "chaff"...the "sheep" and "goats". If we try to pull the "weeds" (the planting of the enemy) up before then, we may pull up some of God's crop, that are attached, or close to them as well...

Shlama,
Chuck


Shlama,

i agree that not everyone receives the same gift -- something that we should be happy about because it makes us NEED each other and truly BE a body working together. we can't be lone gunmen for the Lord.

and i wouldn't go so far as to say these people are tares, just misinformed and / or deceived on this particular part when they make it their focus and cause divisions over it.

when Messiah comes we shall all be tweaking our views and walks to some degree to reflect the true and unblemished Image of Alaha, anyway! i don't think any of us will escape that refinement -- and who would want to?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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#21
Shlama,

Thank you for this post! I was just reading 1 Corinthians 14:2 and came to the same conclusions as many of you in this post. I just came to the conclusion Rav Shaul is saying that no one understands what someone is saying in a foreign language except Elohim (for Elohim knows all languages). I was truly blessed to see this post discussing the very same thing.

I was also wondering, however, if anyone POSSIBLY considered that 'spirit' ('ruqha) could be translated here a different way? Perhaps "wind" instead? i.e. was Rav Shaul trying to say:

"For he that speaks in a tongue, speaks not to men, but to Elohim; for no one understands what is said (except Elohim, for Elohim knows all languages); yet into the wind he speaks a mystery.? (This would potentially match 1 Corinthians 14:9- 'You will have been as if you spoke into the air)?

OR, ... he mutters a mystery by his breath?

I am a novice so I am asking to know. I am not familiar with the substitution of the proclictics yet, so i was wondering if this is possible.

I really appreciate the feedback- again, you all really have no idea how much this helps me. Given that 1 Corinthians 14 is taken out of context so much to begin with, why, this could clear up a lot of confusion for men who have become frustrated with their charismatic churches.

Brachot. --Bradley
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#22
Beyond 1Corinthians 14:2, the word ruh is found in Romans 1:11 (varying from the usual ruha).
In Romans 1:11, ruh is found, possibly relating to a translation compatible with the Greek reading.
In the case of Romans 1:11, I believe the Greek cannot read according to how some have rendered the Aramaic. (The Greek reads along the lines of 'a pneumatic gift.')
In the case of 1Corinthians 14:2, I think it is a possibility for the Greek to also be translated as you have suggested.
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#23
Quote:1 Corinthians 13:1 also states
Though in every tongue of men and of angels I spoke, and had not love, I should be as brass which soundeth,
or a cymbal which giveth voice (Etheridge)
that when speaking in a tongue it can be the "tongues of men or of angels" that the believer is speaking via the gift of the holy spirit that each born again one receives.

"Tongues of angels" is often understood by several scholars to be an idiomatic expression for speaking eloquently. George Lamsa also taught this as demonstrated in his book "Idioms in the Bible Explained and a Key to the Original Gospels". I am disposed to agree with the brother who suggested that Rav Shaul is teaching thus: if he speaks eloquently without love, it is the same as a clanging cow bell. OK, so its 'cymbal', but I like the vision of a cow bell. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Quote:I have never heard someone who claimed to speak in spiritual tongues condemn those who do not. There may be some who have, but I have never seen it or heard it taught anywhere.


My friend, you may want to reconsider this. In the Pentecostal-Apostolic faith- which their churches are sometimes called "Apostolic Church of God" or "(Suburbia) Apostolic Church"-they have a FOUNDATIONAL doctrinal teaching that someone cannot be saved unless they speak in tongues, and have water baptism in the name of Jesus. Other charismatic circles teach that those who do not have "the baptism of tongues" cannot perform signs, wonders, or miracles without it. Now I do not speak for these faiths, nor would I like too. I only know these things from my many first-hand accounts, which caused me to walk away from Christianity and even Messiah for about 7 years. And even today, it seems I run into these types every time I turn a corner! Therefore, I encourage you to investigate for yourself (take Messiah with you) these claims I make- you will see there are those who call themselves Christians who necessitate requirements for salvation other than Christ.
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#24
Hi Bradley,

Quote:There may be some who have, but I have never seen it or heard it taught anywhere.

As I said, there may be some who do, I just have never seen it, or heard it taught. And if they have, I would not agree with them, nor the other side who say that those aren't saved if they do so.

Did you chose to walk away from Christ for those 7 years, or were you forced to do so? I don't think we can blame others for that. If so, we can justify it all day long, with what some others might be doing wrong.

Shlama,
Chuck
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#25
Shlama Chuck,

I agree with everything you posted, wholeheartedly. My only point was only that there are SEVERAL groups who abuse the tongues issue, as I wanted to contribute to the thread, and your post as well. By citing the vast groups who utilize Corinthians as "proof texts" when developing the tongues doctrine, I only wanted to illustrate the many denominations who may be confused about the very passages they claim to uphold. These groups number in the hundreds of thousands!

I totally agree with you; we can only blame ourselves for walking away. However, I still think it was a major factor, at least for an impressionable 20-year-old. I specifically remember thinking that "if people need a spiritual gift for salvation, then Christ died for nothing." I would not say I was forced to walk away from YHVH, but some people told me I was "deceived" for saying that tongues (as I knew them) were not of God (at least those as demonstrated in Acts 2 for example). 'Tongues' was one of their prerequisites for salvation, so you could say I was forced to leave that particular denomination. I just couldn't believe then how so many people had so many doctrines, and how God could allow it (again, thinking as a 20-year old). If I knew then what I know now, I would've been much stronger in my faith, and wouldn't have given up so easily.
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#26
Understood Bradley...and I'm happy to see that you are strong in Christ today. I too have been through a trial of faith. It's no fun, but it was something God had me go through for His reasons.

Shlama,
Chuck
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