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Earliest known date attached to four Gospels
#46
Shlama Akhay,

I sent an e-mail to the Secret Archives address <!-- e --><a href="mailto:asv@asv.va">asv@asv.va</a><!-- e --> (Archivio Segreto Vaticano) and got a reply from Dr. Marco Grilli who is Secretary of the Prefecture. Vatican City, 21 March 2009


[QUOTE] Dear Sir
In reply to Your e-mail of today, I am pleased to invite You addressing Your request to the Vatican Library (<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vaticanlibrary.va">www.vaticanlibrary.va</a><!-- w -->), to which the manuscript should belong.

Regards.[END OF QUOTE]

What do I do now? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> <!-- s:tellme: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/tellme.gif" alt=":tellme:" title="Tell Me" /><!-- s:tellme: -->

Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey
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#47
shlom lokh akh Larry,

I've already sent a request to the Vatican library asking for information on it, but I haven't gotten a response yet => I directed to the Manuscript department.

How about you try to send it directly to the head of the Manuscript department => Dr Paolo Vian
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?pag=contactDip&pers=Vian">http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?p ... &pers=Vian</a><!-- m -->

push bshalomo,
keefa-morun
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#48
abudar2000 Wrote:So for some reason the Romans placed a Syriac Gospel on their Holy Altar:

Shlama Akhi Keefa,

This was definitely a CoE manuscript in a CoE church, although the area is named "Darta de Romaye". Before 1552 there was no presence of the Western Catholic Church within Mesopotamia and Persia.

In Baghdad there is an area called "Darta de'Romaye" in Aramaic ("Dar al-Rum" in Arabic), it is named that way because there is an ancient Greek palace there (from the days of Alexander). Sixteen of our Patriarchs were buried in there, from Mar Yokhanan III (893-899) up until Mar Eliyah II (1111-1132).

See this URL:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jB8ir0e...&ct=result

You can see here in the book the mention of the Church of Mar Sabrisho in the Suq-al-Talat quarter of Baghdad. This was a Patriarchal residence. This is the church my priest told me this manuscript was housed in by the Rassam family.
+Shamasha Paul bar-Shimun de'Beth-Younan
[Image: sig.jpg]
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#49
shlom lokh akh Paul myaqro,

Paul Younan Wrote:In Baghdad there is an area called "Darta de'Romaye" in Aramaic ("Dar al-Rum" in Arabic), it is named that way because there is an ancient Greek palace there (from the days of Alexander). Sixteen of our Patriarchs were buried in there, from Mar Yokhanan III (893-899) up until Mar Eliyah II (1111-1132).

See this URL:

http://books.google.com/books?id=jB8ir0e...&ct=result

You can see here in the book the mention of the Church of Mar Sabrisho in the Suq-al-Talat quarter of Baghdad. This was a Patriarchal residence. This is the church my priest told me this manuscript was housed in by the Rassam family.

tawdi 'al tash'eetho dashmeh dathar dorto drumoye!

But I still say that if this Gospel manuscript had differed from the Peshitta, then your Patriarch would have said so.
I still see this as a big deal, and an affirmation of the Peshitta Aramaic text. Hopefully one day will either find this Gospel and/or the Patriarch's description of the text.

P.S. On a side note, the Syriac Maronite Church has officially start using the Eastern Anaphora again which we call "Sharar" and which you call "Adday and Mari"; it has been made mandatory for five of the important Sundays in our Church calendar. (This is the Arabic and Syriac Text, in the future we will provide the Syriac only text -- which is a bit longer)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.beith-morounoye.org/prayers/Qoorbono/2008_sharar_anaphore_ar_syr.pdf">http://www.beith-morounoye.org/prayers/ ... ar_syr.pdf</a><!-- m -->


push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#50
Paul Younan Wrote:What we need is exact translation of the Latin: does Assemani simply quote folio 140 of Mar Elia's Homily, and that is the reference given at the start of this thread?

I have compared both catalogs: the first, Bibliotheca Orientalis (B.O.), by Assemani senior, gives a general index of the contents of the codex. The second, Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana (B.A.V.), by Assemani junior, gives a more detailed description, folio by folio.

B.O. (Vol. 2 page 486) mentions specifically a Gospel (in the left column at the end).
Benecditio Evangelii veteris - Blessed old Gospel.
This is followed by a reference to a comment from Mar Machicha, Bishop of Gesluna, at the end of this Gospel.
Machichae Episcope Geslunae Annotatio...[etc]
Then comes the reference to the annotation of Acheus/Akhai
Annotatio ab Acheu hic descripti...[etc]

B.A.V. (Part 1 Vol. 2 page 492) does not mention the Gospel, instead, there is a kind of lesson about the Gospels.
47. Interrogatio e Responsio ...[etc] folio 139
Then comes the inscription of Acheus
48. Adnotatio ad calcem...[etc] folio 140
And finally the comment of Mar Machicha (in aramaic with latin translation, that mentions a church called Mar Sabarjesu, which is probably the latin for Sawrisho).
49. Adnotatio altera Machichae...[etc] folio 141

About that comment by Mar Machicha, I found this reference:

Quote:GESLUNA, ville ??piscopale de la province de Nisibe ,au dioc??se de Chald??e , sous la m??tropole de Nisibe. Elle est proche de Balada, qui a eu quelquefois le m??me ??v??que ; ne serait-ce pas celle que le g??ographe de Nubie , appel?? Gelon , et qui est assez proche du Zab? Voici deux de ses ??v??ques :
1. Machicha, qui a fait quelques remarques sur un des manuscrits syriaques qui ont ??te mis dans la biblioth??que du Vatican du temps du pape Innocent XIII. Bibl. Or., tom. 2 , p. 486.
2. Sim??on , ??v??que de Ralada et de Gefluna , assista ?? l'ordination de Jahallatra III.

A rough translation by google translator:
Quote:GESLUNA, episcopal city in the province of Nisibis in the Diocese of Chaldea, in the city of Nisibis. It is close to Balada, who was sometimes the same bishop, would not that which the geographer of Nubia, known Gelon, which is quite close to Zab? Two of its bishops:
1. Machicha, who made a few remarks on one of the Syriac manuscripts that have been placed in the Vatican Library in the time of Pope Innocent XIII. Bibl. Or, tom. 2, p. 486.
2. Simeon, bishop of Ralada and Gefluna, attended the ordination of Jahallatra III.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=nwAUAAAAQAAJ&printsec=titlepage&hl=pt-BR#PPA80,M1">http://books.google.com/books?id=nwAUAA ... R#PPA80,M1</a><!-- m -->

So I think it would be interesting to have a translation of that comment from Mar Machicha. In my opinion this may be an evidence that this Gospel was placed in Vatican.

Edit: Obviously, only a scholar in Baroque Latin can give the details and correct meanings of the organization and latin contents of these catalogs. Wich certainly is not my case.
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#51
I was just reading though the posts here and it's such fascinating stuff! Akhay, this is definitely something worth looking into, serious investigation is in order. I can't wait to see what you guys find out. <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->
Shalom, Shlama, Salaam & Yiasou.
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#52
shlom lokh akh Rafa,

Rafa Wrote:Keefa, sorry if I insulted the Pope somehow. This is a Christian-Christian issue anyways and I don't believe in "a great latin patriarch conspiracy". Sorry for my insensitivity.

Don't worry about it, we're all here to learn and explore the many possibilities that this research entails. As for for "Christian-Christian issue", there is no such thing, we are all brothers in msheeHo.

tawdi,
keefa bar morun
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#53
shlomo,

So here goes, below is the Syriac quote and its translation for 47, 48, and 49:

47. Biblioteca Apostolica Vatican 2 - P.492

???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????????

Translation of the Syriac:
Therefore in every place says Matay, and Marqos, and Luqo, and the reset.

(Doesn???t seem applicable to the following!)

Assemani ??? Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana Vol 2 -- P492
48.

?????? ?????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ??????????????. ???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????????????????????? ?????????????????? ????????????????. ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????????????????? ??????????. ???????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????????? ????????????????. ???????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????????????. ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ????????????:

Translation of the Syriac:
On this old Gospel upon the altar of the Holy Church that is in Dorto-drumoye from the city of Baghdad. There was an Old Edessan Gospel that was clear with no missing letters, and was said to be better than any new Books. Only the first section was lost from it from that time period, and at the end was written:
This Holy Book was finished on the 5th day in the week, the 18th in December of the year 389 of the Greeks (i.e 78 AD). Handwriting by the hand of the apostle AHay friend of Mor Mori the student of Mor Aday the Apostle; his prayer be with us Amen!

49. Biblioteca Apostolica Vatican 2 - P.492

???????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????????????? ??????????????: ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????? ?????????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????? ????????????????. ???????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ?????? ??????. ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ????????????. ?????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ????????????????????: ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ?????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ????????????

Translation of the Syriac:
Mor Makeekho the Bishop of Ghesluno wrote while saying ???that I saw the end of the ancient Gospel in the Holy Church of Mor Sabaryeshu??? of Shuq-tloto of the city of Baghdad???.
I seek from you: Oh! Holy Trinity the cause of all and the bringer of all the living; Oh! Unique nature that is worshiped by all; Oh! Life of all breath: Make me worthy of your everlasting mercy in that they are all agreeable to you, to bring to pass; and for the forgiveness of my debts that absolved my immense actions. Amen!

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#54
...

Quote:So here goes, below is the Syriac quote and its translation for 47, 48, and 49:

47. Biblioteca Apostolica Vatican 2 - P.492

???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????????

Translation of the Syriac:
Therefore in every place says Matay, and Marqos, and Luqo, and the reset.


Why is the Gospel of John not mentioned here? And what does "and the reset" mean?

...
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#55
...

I am wondering if the Gospel that is being talk about from 78 A.D. had the Gospel of John in it? I am asking this, because there is the belief that John wrote the Gospel after his time on Patmos and after his release while living in Ephesus...

...
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#56
shlomo Thirdwoe,

Thirdwoe Wrote:Why is the Gospel of John not mentioned here?

In the Latin it has the continuation of the text:

Christis(Christ) Dominus(The Lord) dicit(says): Amen dico(I say to) vobis(you): apud(with) Johannem(John) vero(true) dicit(he says), Amen, Amen dico(I say to) vobis(you)

Then if we take the Syriac and the Latin:

Wherefore in every place says Matay, Marqos, and Luqo that the Lord Christ says: Amen I say to you;
With true John He says: Amen, Amen, I say to you.

So this may apply to the manuscript quotes in 48 and 49.

Thirdwoe Wrote:And what does "and the reset" mean?

It means that the author chose not to copy the whole quote, and is telling us there's more to follow.

I wish he had quoted the next part, which would have been very useful.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
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#57
Thirdwoe Wrote:...

I am wondering if the Gospel that is being talk about from 78 A.D. had the Gospel of John in it? I am asking this, because there is the belief that John wrote the Gospel after his time on Patmos and after his release while living in Ephesus...

...

There does seem to be a note attached to 48 that speaks of Patmos, but we'll need someone who knows Latin to translate it for us. I've tried and what I came up with doesn't make much sense
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#58
Shlama all--

I should point out that it is quite possible John didn't finish his Gospel until several years AFTER 78, although a line like 5:1 might suggest he began the draft decades earlier. But remember, if tradition is true, John is writing almost 20 years after this mss would have been produced. Therefore, "and the rest" probably refers to the writings of Peter and Paul who, like Matthew and Mark, died in the 60's of the common era.

Even if John wrote his Gospel pre 78, there is another possibility. We must remember it took a long time for all 4 Gospels to get gathered together in one place. In the early decades of the faith, each community would have ONE Gospel, if they had any at all. So Ephesus would have had John's Gospel probably, but Scripture suggests that Philemon, Mark and Romans would have been in Rome. 1 Peter was written from Babylon and Peter probably was the final redactor for Mark. Matthew's Gospel would have been in Israel, or perhaps later in Ethiopia where tradition says he died. Of course Pantaenus says Matthew's Hebrew Gospel reached India as early as 52 so compared to that 78 looks more plausible.

As for Matthew writing as early as 41, this is also possible, and more to the point copies of that Gospel would most likely have been in hebrew script (Aramaic language) and a copy of this version would have had YHWH rather MarYah in it, which may be the source of the commentary in Mas Shabbath 116a.

For the record, I believe it is possible that one of these ancient source could see the light of day again.
Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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#59
...

Quote:although a line like 5:1 might suggest he began the draft decades earlier.

Could you explain this please Brother Andrew?

...
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#60
abudar2000 Wrote:shlomo,

So here goes, below is the Syriac quote and its translation for 47, 48, and 49:

47. Biblioteca Apostolica Vatican 2 - P.492

???????????? ?????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ?????????????? ??????????

Translation of the Syriac:
Therefore in every place says Matay, and Marqos, and Luqo, and the reset.

(Doesn???t seem applicable to the following!)

Assemani ??? Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana Vol 2 -- P492
48.

?????? ?????? ???????????????????????????? ???????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ??????????????. ???????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????????????????????? ?????????????????? ????????????????. ?????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ???????? ?????????????? ?????? ???????????????????? ??????????. ???????????????? ?????????? ?????? ?????? ?????????????? ????????????????. ???????? ?????????????????? ?????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ?????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ??????????????????. ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????????? ?????????? ?????????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????? ???????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????? ???????????? ?????????????? ???????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????????????? ?????????? ?????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ?????????? ????????????:

Translation of the Syriac:
On this old Gospel upon the altar of the Holy Church that is in Dorto-drumoye from the city of Baghdad. There was an Old Edessan Gospel that was clear with no missing letters, and was said to be better than any new Books. Only the first section was lost from it from that time period, and at the end was written:
This Holy Book was finished on the 5th day in the week, the 18th in December of the year 389 of the Greeks (i.e 78 AD). Handwriting by the hand of the apostle AHay friend of Mor Mori the student of Mor Aday the Apostle; his prayer be with us Amen!

49. Biblioteca Apostolica Vatican 2 - P.492

???????? ?????????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????????????????? ???????? ???????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????????????????? ???????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????????????????? ??????????????: ???????????????? ???????????? ???????????????? ???????? ?????????????????????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????????? ???????? ????????????????. ???????? ?????????????????? ???????????? ???????????????????? ?????? ??????. ???????? ???????????? ?????????? ????????????. ?????????????????????? ???????????????????????? ???????????????????? ?????????????? ?????????????? ???????? ???????????????? ????????????????????: ???????????????????? ?????????????? ???????????????????????????????? ?????? ???????????????????????? ?????????? ????????????

Translation of the Syriac:
Mor Makeekho the Bishop of Ghesluno wrote while saying ???that I saw the end of the ancient Gospel in the Holy Church of Mor Sabaryeshu??? of Shuq-tloto of the city of Baghdad???.
I seek from you: Oh! Holy Trinity the cause of all and the bringer of all the living; Oh! Unique nature that is worshiped by all; Oh! Life of all breath: Make me worthy of your everlasting mercy in that they are all agreeable to you, to bring to pass; and for the forgiveness of my debts that absolved my immense actions. Amen!

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun

Thank you very much for translation, Akhi Keefa. It is a great help! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->

So we have at least two witnesses to the Gospel (or Gospels):

The one who transcribed or compiled this manuscript (probably Mar Elia III) and Mor Makeekho.

Now I'm wondering if this Mor Makeekho, bishop of Gesluna, is indeed the same as Mar Makhikka Bar Shlemon, Patriarch of the CoE (1092-1110).

Unfortunately the catalog provides the information in little pieces. If we had access to the full manuscript we could fill the gaps.

Shlama
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