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#16
Shlama Dave,

Your next move is to say that Muhammad (an illiterate) somehow heard in detail the advancements of Galen, a second century physician, and then copied these ideas on paper.

Unfortunate for you, brother sir, there has been no evidence to prove Galen's teachings were transmitted to Muhammad either in its original language or in Arabic.

However, this is my next move. Now pay attention to the chessboard.

I am going to charge the Bible of plagurism.

Let's read a passage from A History of Embryology by Joseph Needham.

Embryology in Antiquity

During the period when the biological school of Alexandria was at its height, that city became an important Jewish centre. Two centuries later it was to produce Philo, but now the Alexandrian Jews were writing that part of the modern Bible known as the Wisdom Literature. In books such as the Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Proverbs, etc. the typical Hellenic exclusion of the action of gods in natural phenomena is clearly to be seen. There are two passages of embryological importance. Firstly, in the Book of Job (10:10), Job is made to say,

"Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast fashioned me as clay; and wilt thou bring me into the dust again! Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews."

On the Generation of Animals, Aristotle (384 BC???322 BC) wrote

"The male provides the ???form??? and the ???principle of the movement,??? the female provides the body, in other words the material. Compare the coagulation of milk. Here, milk is the body, and the fig-juice or rennet contains the principle which causes it to set."

This comparison of embryogeny with the making of cheese is interesting in view of the fact that precisely the same comparison occurs in Aristotle's book On the Generation of Animals, as we have already seen" Joseph Needham, A History of Embryology, Cambridge University Press, 1959.

Interestingly enough, the only other embryological reference in the Wisdom Literature, which occurs in the Wisdom of Solomon (vii. 2), also copies an Aristotelian theory, namely, that the embryo is formed from (menstrual) blood (payback).

There the speaker says,

"In the womb of a mother was I moulded into flesh in the time of ten months, being compacted with blood of the seed of man and the pleasure that accompanieth sleep."

"Perhaps it is no coincidence that both these citations can be referred back to Aristotle, and in the second case even to Hippocrates; perhaps the Alexandrian Jews of the third century B.C. were studying Aristotle as attentively as Philo Judaeus studied Plato a couple of hundred years later"Joseph Needham, A History of Embryology, Cambridge University Press, 1959.

The Wisdom of Solomon is sacred to the Roman Catholics (who make up more than half of the Christian population). It was also discovered at Qumran alongside the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Now compare II Kings 19 to Isaiah 37 (attributed by two or more different authors). You will notice a 100% word agreement.

Literary theft.

Make your move.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#17
Shlama Bar Khela,

Your response made me laugh.
Job's words have nothing to do with embryology. He referred to his sufferings at God's hand in a figure of speech as being curdled as cheese.

Galen of the 2nd century did not understand how human life is formed. If Mohammed repeated Galen, he repeated errors.

I have never accepted the Apocrypha as scripture. Wisdom of Solomon is from the Apocrypha.

As to 2 Kings and Isaiah, we don't know that Isaiah didn't write 2 Kings. He would have been stealing from himself if he had.
I'm not aware that plagiarism even existed in 700 BC as we define it today. The writer of 2 Kings does not name himself, so how could we accuse anyone of plagiarism ? Isaiah has much of the info. contained in 2 Kings 19-25 in his prophecy , chapters 37-39. He may very well have written both books.


What next ? You have conveniently ignored the charge of ignorance on Mohammed's part. He wrote errors about human conception and embryos. The Koran cannot be the word of God.

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Dave
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#18
Shlama Dave,

Quote:Your response made me laugh.

Laughter is a way to ward off the sign of embarassment.

Quote:Job's words have nothing to do with embryology. He referred to his sufferings at God's hand in a figure of speech as being curdled as cheese.

Sure, buddy.

"Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast fashioned me as clay; and wilt thou bring me into the dust again! Hast thou not poured me out as milk, and curdled me like cheese? Thou hast clothed me with skin and flesh, and knit me together with bones and sinews."

This verse clearly depicts the sequence of Job's creation. After being fashioned as clay, he makes the poetic statement of being poured out as milk and curdled like cheese. Aristole made the same comparison (milk and its coagulation, which is cheese)

Coagulation: to cause to become viscous or thickened into a coherent mass : CURDLE, CLOT
2) to gather together or form into a mass or group

On the Generation of Animals, Aristotle (384 BC???322 BC) wrote

"The male provides the ???form??? and the ???principle of the movement,??? the female provides the body, in other words the material. Compare the coagulation of milk. Here, milk is the body, and the fig-juice or rennet contains the principle which causes it to set."

Here are the facts:

1) Many Alexandrian Jews studied Aristole's On the Generation of Animals at the biological school of Alexandria
2) At least portions of the Book of Job, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Proverbs, was composed in this very important Jewish center.
3) Two embryological references, which can be found in Aristole's On Generation of Animals, occur in two of these writings (Job, WoS)

Conclusion; The embryological references that occur in these writings have their root from the Alexandrian Jews who were heavily influenced by Aristole (amongside others).

I've demonstrated the sequence of the development of the human embryo with verses from the Qu'ran. They make no such error.

You and Paul have chosen to ignore them, however.

Quote:Galen of the 2nd century did not understand how human life is formed. If Mohammed repeated Galen, he repeated errors.

But now we both know he didn't.

Quote:I have never accepted the Apocrypha as scripture. Wisdom of Solomon is from the Apocrypha.

Churches seem to pick books that shades their pictures of theology and discard the others. Compare the Syrian Orthodox Church's canon to the Ethiopian one (both "Apostolic" churches receiving instruction from Apostles). Compare the Roman Catholic canon to the Protestant.

Quote:As to 2 Kings and Isaiah, we don't know that Isaiah didn't write 2 Kings. He would have been stealing from himself if he had.

There is much controversy over the authorship of Isaiah because it has multiple writing styles. There is even controversy over the authorship of the Torah as we have it today. Authorship of a book should not involve faith.

Quote:I'm not aware that plagiarism even existed in 700 BC as we define it today. The writer of 2 Kings does not name himself, so how could we accuse anyone of plagiarism ? Isaiah has much of the info. contained in 2 Kings 19-25 in his prophecy , chapters 37-39. He may very well have written both books.

Quote:What next ? You have conveniently ignored the charge of ignorance on Mohammed's part. He wrote errors about human conception and embryos. The Koran cannot be the word of God.

Read my refutation to these "errors" which is right before my post on the book of Job.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#19
Been there, done that .

Shlama,


Dave
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#20
gbausc Wrote:Been there, done that .

Shlama,

Dave

There is no need to act tough or bluff.

I've destroyed your argument.

Now, please leave Paul to me without further interruptions.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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#21
What an artiste you are !Did Allah give you your load of arrogance, or came it from another source ? You have not even answered my arguments, let alone destroyed them.
The only thing you have destroyed is your credibility with me.
You are nothing but a propagandist. You don't even believe the things you say. How can you convince someone else to believe them ? You shuck and jive, avoiding my main argument and throw up a smoke screen of general objections from the Apocrypha and critics of Isaiah, and you call that brilliant destruction of an argument which you totally avoided.

What a joke !

Have fun with Paul; I doubt he takes you seriously. I know I will not. You are not sincere;just another salesman.

Protest all you wish.
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#22
Quote:What an artiste you are !Did Allah give you your load of arrogance, or came it from another source ?

It is from me.

Quote:You have not even answered my arguments, let alone destroyed them.
The only thing you have destroyed is your credibility with me.

I've addressed each argument. Is there something I've missed?

Quote:You are nothing but a propagandist.

Ad hominem (abusive)

Quote:You don't even believe the things you say. How can you convince someone else to believe them ? You shuck and jive, avoiding my main argument and throw up a smoke screen of general objections from the Apocrypha and critics of Isaiah, and you call that brilliant destruction of an argument which you totally avoided.

I've addressed your argument on human embryology (both within the Qu'ran and the book of Job). They are on this very thread.

Quote:What a joke !

I've demonstrated that the verses you've quoted from the Qu'ran are in concordance with modern embryology.

Then I pointed out how one of the verses in the book of Job was at least "inspired" by Aristole's On Generation of Animals.

You later dismissed it as having nothing to do with embryology but as a theme of Job's suffering (without evidence).

I later showed you how the verse depicts Job's formation ("skin and flesh, bones and sinews").

Quote:Have fun with Paul; I doubt he takes you seriously. I know I will not. You are not sincere;just another salesman.

You've ran out of ammonition. Take a bow.

Who was a greater salesman than the Apostle Paul?

Quote:Protest all you wish.

I've challenged the adminstrator to find a single contradiction in the Qu'ran (internal or external) to further prove the supremacy of the Peshitta. If they can, then the Qu'ran is as they say. If they cannot, which they will not, then reconsider the supremacy of the "queen of versions." It is a worthy challenge that will either affirm your faith in the Peshitta or break it.

All of you. Attack me at once.
???Do not give up, for that is ignorance and not according to the rules of this art... Like the lover, you cannot hope to achieve success without infinite perseverance.???
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