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Old Syriac Manuscripts - Printable Version

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Old Syriac Manuscripts - ScorpioSniper2 - 03-15-2014

Are there any other fragments of the Curetonian and Sinaitic Palimpsest besides the ones found by William Cureton and Agnes Smith Lewis? I don't see how they can be so certain that the Old Syriac is older than the Peshitta when we have only two manuscripts that are from the 4th century. Our full Peshitta manuscripts also comes from around the same time as the earliest full New Testament manuscripts in Greek. We don't have any fragments because the Eastern Christians and Jews did not keep fragmentary writings. Also, if the Old Syriac was so important, why was the Sinaitic found in a trash bin?


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - SteveCaruso - 03-16-2014

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:Are there any other fragments of the Curetonian and Sinaitic Palimpsest besides the ones found by William Cureton and Agnes Smith Lewis?

Presently no.

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:I don't see how they can be so certain that the Old Syriac is older than the Peshitta when we have only two manuscripts that are from the 4th century.

The close-to-certainty comes from many thousands of hours of vetted research and a number of generations of linguistic analysis and shared features with the Peshitta and subsequent Syriac translations from the Greek. They're written in an earlier dialect of Syriac than the Peshitta (however, "Old Syriac" is a misnomer as the Old Syriac *NT* is not written in Old Syriac, the *dialect*) with a number of westernisms (Aramaic dialect-wise, not Syriac-wise or text-type-wise) which are arguably earlier.

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:Our full Peshitta manuscripts also comes from around the same time as the earliest full New Testament manuscripts in Greek.

The earliest more-or-less complete Peshitta manuscript dates to the mid-to-late 5th century and the earliest more-or-less-complete Greek manuscript is from the mid 4th century, with various complete books of the NT as early as the mid 3rd century and fragments even earlier. Nothing Peshitta-wise can be dated to that period.

(The Khabouris' prior copy "attestation" does not count, unless someone can *actually* produce a critical text of the colophon-- which is a heavily-damaged rorschach. :-) )

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:We don't have any fragments because the Eastern Christians and Jews did not keep fragmentary writings. Also, if the Old Syriac was so important, why was the Sinaitic found in a trash bin?

When manuscripts wear out to the point they cannot be used, they're retired (usually stored -- at least in Jewish tradition -- in a genizah before they are ceremonially buried or burned). If the parchment can be re-used, the ink is scratched off to make a palimpsest. Where it *seems* careless to modern sensibilities, there are even a number of Peshitta palimpsests that attest to this which have the Peshitta as the underwriting and another text on top. We also have Peshitta fragments and bits of old retired Peshitta manuscripts used as bookbindings.

Parchment was simply *that* expensive. :-)

Peace,
-Steve


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - Aramaic - 03-17-2014

Contrary to popular belief, the text as found in the Eastern Peshitta is internally attested to be at the very least 2nd century; and those Greek scholars who are honest and objective will have to agree. And if the witness testimony in Assameni's Bibliotheca Orientalis, of the Edessian Gospel seen on the altar in Baghdad is to be believed, which we believe is true, then, we have an Aramaic text of at least the Gospels, dating back no later than 78 A.D.

Mar Elia III, who was Patriarch of The Church of the East from 1176-1190 A.D. in one of his Homilies, gives witness to an ?old Edessian Gospel? which he saw sitting on the Altar of the Mar Sawrisho parish in the city of Baghdad, where he states that it was better than any of the newer copies with no missing letters, and which bore the date of 78 A.D., (?year 389 of the Greeks?) and as recorded in the colophon was handwritten by Mar Akhai, the companion of Mar Mari, the disciple of Mar Adai (Thaddeus) the Apostle.

Of course the Greek primacy adherents can't accept this at all, as it would mess up their NT transmission theories, and give some more weight to the text of the Aramaic NT. While they can't tell us which form of the Greek text could be the original, we know that the Eastern Peshitta text is the original form of the NT. It is just so obvious.

What we know about the Church of the East, is that it dates back in origin to at least the mid 1st century, being established by the Apostles of Christ themselves, and was very strong in the 2nd century onward, having spread out in many places in the Eastern lands.

The question should be asked, what language was the NT written in that these Aramaic speaking Christians of The Church of the East were hearing read each week? And if this "old syriac" text is really the older form of the Aramaic NT, then what is substantially different in it's text, as found in the text of the Eastern Peshitta? Let's look at some verses to see what we can learn.


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - ScorpioSniper2 - 03-17-2014

Thanks for your replies. Brother Steve, I was wondering if I could ask your permission to use your Galilean Aramaic Lord's Prayer on my website. I've been wanting to put yours, the Peshitta, Curetonian, Sinaiticus, and Delitzsch's versions of the Lord's Prayer on there.


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - Paul Younan - 03-17-2014

Shlama Akhi Steve

Can you give me an example, please, of an eastern Palimpset of the Peshitta? Or an eastern text used as a binding?

I'd like the manuscript collection, designation and origin, please.

If they are Peshitto, or western copies found somewhere in Mardin or Egypt, no response is necessary. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

+Shamasha


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - Bram - 03-24-2014

Shlama,

Aramaic Wrote:Mar Elia III, who was Patriarch of The Church of the East from 1176-1190 A.D. in one of his Homilies, gives witness to an ?old Edessian Gospel? which he saw sitting on the Altar of the Mar Sawrisho parish in the city of Baghdad, where he states that it was better than any of the newer copies with no missing letters, and which bore the date of 78 A.D., (?year 389 of the Greeks?) and as recorded in the colophon was handwritten by Mar Akhai, the companion of Mar Mari, the disciple of Mar Adai (Thaddeus) the Apostle.

Aramaic would you mind to attach the picture of the Altar of the Mar Sawrisho parish in the city of Baghdad? as I don't have the idea to have the picture above.

Tawdee.


Re: Old Syriac Manuscripts - Aramaic - 03-24-2014

Sorry, I don't have a time machine.