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Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Printable Version

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Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - orynider - 11-07-2013

Shalom,

Can a comparation be done between the differences of the last verses or even the last page of the Gospels in Codex Khabouris vs. Diatessaron (Ewangeliyon Damhallte) ?

Torah.


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Stephen Silver - 11-08-2013

orynider Wrote:Shalom,

Can a comparation be done between the differences of the last verses or even the last page of the Gospels in Codex Khabouris vs. Diatessaron (Ewangeliyon Damhallte) ?

Torah.

Shlama orynider:
You will need to have an Aramaic copy of the Ewangeliyon Damhalite (Diatessaron). The Diatessaron is well represented in Greek but I have never seen an Aramaic copy. Perhaps I will sometime.

Shlama,
Stephen


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Thirdwoe - 11-08-2013

What I have heard is that there is no known Greek copy of The Diatessaron in existence, nor has there ever been said there was one in Greek. It is speculated that The Diatessaron might have been originally done in Greek by Tatian, but no one knows for sure.

I believe that it was originally made in Aramaic, by Tatian in the mid 2nd century...and as far as I know the only thing we have of it that has come down to us, is a translation of an Aramaic manuscript, (now lost), that was translated into Arabic, then from that Arabic translation, it was translated into English. There is also two Latin translations I have heard about, but I'm not sure about the history of those.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Stephen Silver - 11-08-2013

Thirdwoe Wrote:What I have heard is that there is no known Greek copy of The Diatessaron in existence, nor has there ever been said there was one in Greek. It is speculated that The Diatessaron might have been originally done in Greek by Tatian, but no one knows for sure.

Shlama Akhi Chuck:
I stand corrected.

Shlama,
Stephen


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - orynider - 11-18-2013

Shlama,

So, who did the translation from Arabic ? And if you know how many verses are missing from the first two gospels.

Todah raba!


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Thirdwoe - 11-18-2013

In Borgian ms. the subscription reads.

"Here endeth the Gospel which Tatianus compiled and named Diatessaron, i.e., The Fourfold, a compilation from the four Gospels of the holy Apostles, the excellent Evangelists (peace be upon them). It was translated by the excellent and learned priest, Abu?l Faraj ?Abdulla ibn-at-Tayyib (may God grant him favour), from Syriac into Arabic, from an exemplar written by ?Isa ibn-?Ali al-Motatabbib, pupil of Honain ibn-Ishak (God have mercy on them both). Amen."

The Aramaic text, which is not know to be extant today, from which the Arabic translation was made, is said to be from about the year 900 A.D.

You can read and study this in an English translation at this website below:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.i.html">http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf09.iv.iii.i.html</a><!-- m -->




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Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Thirdwoe - 11-18-2013

Orynider,

If you have some verses in mind, that you would like to check, I can look them up to see if they appear in the Diatessarron, and how they match up with what is found in the Khabouris. I have done some of that comparison a number of times for my own curiosity.

Shlama,
Chuck


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - orynider - 12-11-2013

The translation looks too much like KJV so with the English version any comparison is useless. An screenshot or webcam capture of the very last verses from Matthew and from Mark would help me.

Shlama!


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Thirdwoe - 12-11-2013

Here is a picture of the actual Khabouris Codex pages for the end of Matthew and Mark...and I'll show you the Arabic and Latin translations of the Diatessaron, so you can compare the end with what is at the end of Matthew and Mark in the Khabouris.

End of Matthew:

http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/msviewer.php?ms=1&id=71

End of Mark:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/msviewer.php?ms=1&id=115">http://dukhrana.com/peshitta/msviewer.php?ms=1&id=115</a><!-- m -->


And here is the Arabic Diatessaron, where you can scroll down and read the last part of it.

http://sepehr.mohamadi.name/download/Diatessaron_Arabic.pdf


Here is the Latin Diatessaron, where you can do the same here:

http://sepehr.mohamadi.name/download/Diatessaron_Latin.pdf


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Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Paul Younan - 12-11-2013

Thirdwoe Wrote:What I have heard is that there is no known Greek copy of The Diatessaron in existence, nor has there ever been said there was one in Greek. It is speculated that The Diatessaron might have been originally done in Greek by Tatian, but no one knows for sure.

I believe that it was originally made in Aramaic, by Tatian in the mid 2nd century...and as far as I know the only thing we have of it that has come down to us, is a translation of an Aramaic manuscript, (now lost), that was translated into Arabic, then from that Arabic translation, it was translated into English. There is also two Latin translations I have heard about, but I'm not sure about the history of those.

Shlama,
Chuck

We can be assured 101% that it was was Aramaic harmony of the Gospels. Rabbula went on his rampage to stamp out its popularity in Edessa and Mesopotamia. These were not Greek speaking areas, and a Greek harmony of the gospels would have been as popular and useful to these churches as a Chinese harmony of the Gospels.

Besides, Tatian called himself an Assyrian.

+Shamasha


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Thirdwoe - 12-12-2013

Shamasha Paul, was the Diatessaron used by the Church of the East (Assyrians), east of the Euphrates, or just among the Aramaic speaking Christians of the Syrian Orthodox Churches?


Re: Last Pages from Gospels: KHABOURIS vs. Damhallte - Paul Younan - 12-12-2013

Thirdwoe Wrote:Shamasha Paul, was the Diatessaron used by the Church of the East (Assyrians), east of the Euphrates, or just among the Aramaic speaking Christians of the Syrian Orthodox Churches?

It had popularity east of the Euphrates as well. We just didn't have a maniac like Rabbula running around burning manuscripts. We actually translated it into Arabic in the 11th century, so it was still around for centuries east of the Euphrates after it had disappeared west of the Euphrates.

Was it used in any official capacity like church readings? Probably not. But if it were a harmony of the Peshitta, the readings would've been the same anyway, so no harm done.

+Shamasha