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East/Oriental Church Fathers - g_a_kowalski - 04-21-2011

Where can I find a more-or-less complete list of east/oriental, aramaic speaking church fathers?

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - Paul Younan - 04-22-2011


I'm not aware of an exhaustive list, but the main ones are:

Babai the Great
Awa the Great
Shimon bar-Sabbai
Isaac of Nineveh


Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - berekaloho - 04-23-2011

Beloved in Yashua,Berek Alaha! I feel strongly that Theodore of Mopsuestia,although not belonging entirely to th Church of the East as St.Ephrem is also embraced by the other Eastern Apostolic churches should be added,as well as John of Dalyatha who was a contempoary of St.Issac whose letters are magnificent and also directed the the monastic community as was St.Issac the Syrians,one of the greatest saints of the universal Eastern Apostolic churches.In the infinite love of Yashua,Deacon Michael.PS-I pray and wish all beloved members a blessed and Holy feast of the ressurection.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 04-24-2011

Theodore of Mopsuestia gave a big contribution that we should not forget. William Norton's First Book about Peshitta says like this

"Theodore bishop of Mopsuestia, a celebrated Greek writer, who died about a.d. 429, said that some persons had removed the reading, " without God," and had substituted "by the merciful favour of God."

Theodore of Moposuestia was talking Hebrews 2:9. This elevates the importance of Peshitta.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - g_a_kowalski - 04-27-2011

Thank you, Paul Younan! I have also one more question: where can I find information about Awa the Great? I cannot find anything about that person using Google.


I think I've found him:
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Am I right?

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - Paul Younan - 04-27-2011

That's him.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 05-06-2011

Hello Paul,
I have a question for you. Doesn't Ephraem mention about Revelation of John?

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - Paul Younan - 05-06-2011

Hi Konway. I've not read anything from him about revelation. He could have, though.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 05-07-2011

Hello Paul,
Here is the information. This is from John Gwynn's book about Crawford Revelation.

"Of the fourth century.?In the fourth century, however, we find it distinctly cited, and ascribed to St. John, by the greatest of Syriac divines,
Ephraim, in one of his Sermones Exegetici, as follows :?

"In his Revelation, John saw a book great and wonderful, which was written by God, and there were on it seven seals. There was none that
was able to read it in earth nor in heaven save the Son of God alone who Himself wrote it and sealed it."

Here is the powerpoint presentation of this information from John Gwynn's book. Here is the link to download.

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After around 50 seconds, the "Regular download" link will appear.

At least, we know that Ephraem knew about the book of Revelation. Paul, Here are some major reasons why I pay lots of attention to Revelation.

Matthew 16:28 (From Your Interlinear Translation) - "Truly I say to you, that there are men who are standing here who will not taste death, until they see the Son of man come in his kingdom."

Marqus 9:1 (Your Interlinear Translation) - "And he would say to them, Truly I say to you, that there are some who are standing here, who will not taste of death, until they see the Kingdom of God, which has come in power."

Matthew 24:1-2 "And Yeshua went out of the temple to depart; and his disciples drew near, [and] were showing him the construction of the temple. But he said to them, Behold, do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, that not one stone will be spared here upon [another] stone, that will not be torn down."

Matthew 24:29-30 "And immediately after the suffering of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not shine its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. And then will be seen the sign of the Son of man in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and will see the Son of Man, who comes upon the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory."

As you know, Book of James and Book of 1st Peter mentions about the coming of the Lord. And William Norton says that Jesus came in power, though not in person, in the destruction of the Jewish nation and worship.

John 21:23 (etheridge) - "And that word went forth among the brethren, that that disciple dieth not. But Jeshu did not say, He dieth not, but, If I will that this (man) wait until
I come, what (is that) to thee ?" So I think John is not one of the men who will not taste death, until he see the Son of man come in his kingdom.

Now Paul, I have an off-topic question. Isn't it possible that Revelation didn't reach Eastern Aramaic regions because of Nero's severe attacks on Christians? In Harklean and Crawford Revelation, we see that St. John was banished by Nero Caesar to Patmos. So his attacks already began. We know that Nero was trying to destroy Christians. So St. Peter and St. Paul may have been in prison.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - Paul Younan - 05-07-2011

Shlama Konway, you have to be real careful, there is a lot of "pseudo-Ephrem" out there. He was very famous in life and obviously after death, and there were many copycats.

Also, just because we are aware of Reveleation, does not mean we use it liturgically. The CoE recognizes there is a book by that name that is rumoured to have been written by John, and that's all that Mar Ephrem said in that quote. But that doesn't mean we consider it for liturgical use or as apostolic in origin.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 05-07-2011

I see. But isn't Revelation mentioned as early as early 2nd century AD? Justin Martyr and Irenaeus mention about it. Another thing interests me is the code 666 and 616. Both referring to Nero Caesar. Irenaeus mentions Revelation was written during the time of Domitianou. As you know, Nero's childhood name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. When Nero became the emperor, he was also known as "Domitius Nero."

Roman Naturalist Pliny the Elder (23AD - 79AD) referred to Nero as "Domitius Nero" in his first century encyclopedia (Pliny, Natural History 7:45). As you know, Nero has a nickname called Beast. And he was the sixth caesar.

And you know Peshitta mentions several times about the second coming of the Lord. So I always found this subject interesting.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 05-08-2011

Thanks, Rafa. But what do you think about Revelation?

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - konway87 - 05-08-2011

Very interesting, Rafa. Thank you for your comments. Outside of Peshitta (22 books), I have a belief that Revelation was written by Apostle John himself. As you know, I like to pile up interesting information. The second coming of the Lord was always an interesting topic for me.

And Peshitta mentions several times about this subject. So I always felt that it is necessary to focus on this subject. I have a personal belief that Revelation didn't reach the Church of East, because of Domitius Nero's severe attacks on Christians. At least, I am glad there are hints given in Peshitta about the time of the second coming of Jesus Christ - Matthew 16:28 (From Your Interlinear Translation) - "Truly I say to you, that there are men who are standing here who will not taste death, until they see the Son of man come in his kingdom."

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - Alan G77 - 05-12-2011

Rafa Wrote:
konway87 Wrote:Thanks, Rafa. But what do you think about Revelation?

I think it is a classic pseudo-Ephrem just like the theotokos poem writing one. Some people later on might have added Revelation to the canon, but these people were farther away from the conservative core of the ACOE in Babylon. I myself believe in a 27 book canon but the evidence for the ACOE having ever believed in one seems non-existent. By the way, there was a quote here somewhere from a 10th century (Saint) Patriarch of Constantinople who said these books were not part of the canon. Now if that is what they believed in Constantinople...imagine the ACOE. Again I have a private belief in these books but they were never ACOE canon according to the evidence presented so far.

Rafa, i think you misunderstood the question, revelations is not pseudo-ephrem, it was written by the Apostle John. I know our Church (ACOE) has not canonized it, but we still refer to it and I am sure we believe it is inspired and true.

Re: East/Oriental Church Fathers - berekaloho - 05-16-2011

dear beloved Konway in Yashua,Berek Alaha!!! the verse in Matthew 16;28 where our Lord said there were some men there who would not taste death untill they saw the Lord coming in His kingdom has been understood,as the rest of the synoptic gospels point out this same chronology,that it was meant for Peter James and John who,as the next seqence of verses state were brought by the Lord to the mountain where they saw our Lord transfigured and in Divine conversation with Moses and Elijah.The transfiguration of our Lord was the coming into His kingdom our Lord was referring to.This is the classic Orthodox interpetation of this verse.In Yashua,Deacon Michael.