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Grammar - abudar2000 - 09-06-2003

Breekh Saphrokh Havr Paul,

I'm not sure if it's an appropriate post for this forum, but here goes:

As you know in Western Aramaic we've dropped the long and short vowels, so when I ask questions about them I get confusing answers, I hope you can help me with them.

How do you determine when to use the "rwasa" and when to use the "rwakha"?

How do you determine when to use the "zlama psheeqa" and when to use the "zlama qashya"?

How do you determine when to use the "zlama psheeqa" and when to use the "zlama qashya"?


tawdi saggi Havr waloho nbarekh lokh!

moryo mbarkokh,
Keepha-Moroown


Re: Grammar - Paul Younan - 09-06-2003

Shlama Akhi Abudar,

abudar2000 Wrote:How do you determine when to use the "rwasa" and when to use the "rwakha"?

How do you determine when to use the "zlama psheeqa" and when to use the "zlama qashya"?

The Rwasa is a mark placed below the letter Waw (pronounced as the letter u in rule) and the Rwakha mark is placed above the letter Waw (pronounced as the letter o in row.)

The Zlama Psheeqa is a vowel like the i in fit, and the Zlama Qashya is like the e in egg.

To be completely honest with you, there is no standardization in regards to these vowels even in the eastern community. For instance, in the dialect of Tkhumnaye like myself - we say "Slutha" for prayer (with Rwasa) whereas the Urmians like George Lamsa say "Slotha" (with Rwakha).

The pronunciation depend on the local dialect, which may vary even from village to village! :roll:

So basically my answer to you is that we know how and when to use them only from memory of the pronunciation of the words themselves - and not from any standardized set of rules.

I don't believe the topic is addressed in Yukhanan bar-Zubi's grammar from the 12th century - but I'll check.


Re: Grammar - Guest - 09-06-2003

> to these vowels even in the eastern community. For instance, in the
> dialect of Tkhumnaye like myself - we say "Slutha" for prayer
> (with Rwasa) whereas the Urmians like George Lamsa say "Slo
> tha" (with Rwakha).

So I guess my pronunciation is closer to yours, as I use the word "Slootho". ;)

> I don't believe the topic is addressed in Yukhanan bar-Zubi's grammar
> from the 12th century - but I'll check.[/quote]

A friend sent the following rules concerning long and short from the "Costaz Grammar", what do you think, do they make sense:

Short:
The "short vowel" is that which is located on a letter that is followed by a dormant letter that does not resembles it.

Long:
The "long vowel" is that which is located on a letter that is followed by a letter that resembles it.

The following letters:
The following letters are: olaph, waw, yudh.

poosh bashlomo,
Keepha-Moroown


- Paul Younan - 09-06-2003

That sounds odd - what does Costaz mean by "dormant" and "resemble?"


- abudar2000 - 09-06-2003

Paul Younan Wrote:That sounds odd - what does Costaz mean by "dormant" and "resemble?"

I'm not sure, but he sent it to me in French, I'll post the content of the file as he sent to me, just in case I mis-translated to English (You'll need to install "meltho: Estrangelo Eddesa" font:

Les consonnes ܒ. ܓ. ܕ. ܟܟ. ܦ. ܬ. , appel??s, du nom que forme leur s??rie, be, gh, ke, ph, th, ont une prononciation explosive ou dure et une prononciation spirante ou douce. Le qoushoyo (ܩܽܘܫܳܝܳܐ, ??durcissement??), ou point sur la lettre, peut indiquer la premi??re : ܟ݁‍, k le rukkokho (ܪܽܘܟ݀ܟ݂ܳܐ, ??adoucissement??), ou point dessous, peut indiquer la seconde : ܟ݂‍, kh .


Quatre Syst??mes ont servi ?? l?????criture des voyelles : les lettres-voyelles, le point-voyelle, les voyelles grecques et les voyelles assyrienne.

1. le syst??me des lettres-voyelles fait suivre la consonne ?? vocaliser de l???une des trois lettres ܐ. ܘ. ܝ. Ou, dans les mots grecs, de ܗ : ܦܺܐܪܰܢ. (peran; occ. Piran), ??notre fruit??; ܦ݀ܘܪܩܳܢܳܐ. (purqono, ??d??livrance??; ܒܝܫ. (bich), ??mauvais??; ܠܗܟܣܝܣ (λέζις), (mot).
2. le point-voyelle ou point diacritique, connu d??s le IVe si??cle, a servi ?? la vocalisation de la plus part des manuscrits. Marqu?? au dessus de la consonne, il indique ܰ ou ܳ : ܡ݁ܠܟ݀ܐ (malko), ??roi?? : ܡ݁ܠܟ (molekh) ??il conseille??. Le point diacritique, marqu?? audessous, il indique ܽ ܶ ܡ݂ܠܟ݀ܐ (melko) ??conseil??; ܗ݂ܝ (hi) ??elle??; ou encore l???absence de voyelle : ܥܒ݂ܕܐ (???avdo), ??serviteur??.
3. la courte voyelle c???est par laquelle la lettre qui l???a porte se suive d???une lettre quiescente qui ne la ressemble pas. Et la longue voyelle c???est par laquelle la lettre qui l???a porte et qui se suive d???une lettre qui la ressemble. Et les lettres qui vont avec les voyelles sont les lettres faibles comme ܐ. ܘ. ܝ. o?? le olaph se raccord avec phtoho et ainsi de suite !


- Paul Younan - 09-07-2003

Hi Akh,

I think that these particular vowels in modern Eastern Aramaic probably originated later and that's why the Western doesn't have them. It's impossible for us to know whether or not the ancient pronunciation had them - but I doubt it, otherwise the various Western dialects should have preserved some memory of them.

I think the vowels that we share in common, like Pthakha, Khwasa and Sqapa, are probably the ones that existed in the classical tongue.