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Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-15-2010

Good day!

This would be my first time in this community forum. <!-- s:whaasup: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/whaasup.gif" alt=":whaasup:" title="Whaasup" /><!-- s:whaasup: --> I would just want to ask how one should translate the phrase "Abba's beloved" or "Father's beloved" to Aramaic? <!-- sBlush --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/blush.gif" alt="Blush" title="Blush" /><!-- sBlush --> Is Khabiba Abba a right translation? I deem not. <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->

Thank you, whoever would asnwer this. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - Aaron S - 11-15-2010

I think it is:
Chabiveh dabba
His-beloved of-the-father


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-15-2010

Aaron S Wrote:I think it is:
Chabiveh dabba
His-beloved of-the-father

Chabiveh dabba? Isn't that a feminine translation? Am just really curious, would also want to learn about the translation. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> But thank you, really.


Re: Aramaic Translation - Aaron S - 11-15-2010

It's masculine (or general) singular emphatic with possessive third masculine singular. It could also be done as chabiva dabba... but chabiveh dabba conforms to a frequently used syntax (I can't speak on which is preferable since I don't know Aramaic, but my guess would be chabiveh dabba); it appears in Matthew 1:1 which reads yilidutheh d'Yeshu (genealogy of Yeshua). You could think of d'Yeshu modifying the possessive suffix.
So:
yilidutheh - His genealogy
Whose?
d'Yeshu - of Yeshua

I would say this neatly parallels with the apostrophe-s possessive syntax of English in semantics; that is to say all, or most, instances of the Aramaic syntax above can be translated using apostrophe-s. For example: Yeshua's genealogy, The father's beloved. If there are any other nuances you see, I can try and give some more details.

(p.s. the feminine form would be chabivteh dabba or chabivta dabba; I'm not confident of this, but for masculine plural it might be chabivauhi dabba which is the standard plural suffix for the same possession)


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-15-2010

Aaron S Wrote:It's masculine (or general) singular emphatic with possessive third masculine singular. It could also be done as chabiva dabba... but chabiveh dabba conforms to a frequently used syntax (I can't speak on which is preferable since I don't know Aramaic, but my guess would be chabiveh dabba); it appears in Matthew 1:1 which reads yilidutheh d'Yeshu (genealogy of Yeshua). You could think of d'Yeshu modifying the possessive suffix.
So:
yilidutheh - His genealogy
Whose?
d'Yeshu - of Yeshua

I would say this neatly parallels with the apostrophe-s possessive syntax of English in semantics; that is to say all, or most, instances of the Aramaic syntax above can be translated using apostrophe-s. For example: Yeshua's genealogy, The father's beloved. If there are any other nuances you see, I can try and give some more details.

(p.s. the feminine form would be chabivteh dabba or chabivta dabba; I'm not confident of this, but for masculine plural it might be chabivauhi dabba which is the standard plural suffix for the same possession)

Wow. Thank you so much for the explanation. I was actually tryin to look up for the possessive syntax of Aramaic in order to answer this question. Thank you so much. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - Jerry - 11-15-2010

I've noticed that most translators omit the Aramaic "his" possessive when it is followed by an objective qualifying word, as in "of-the-Father". So they would translate chabiveh dabba as "the-beloved of-the-Father". Admittedly, this is the most straight-forward way to express it in English.

But if one is a stickler for carrrying forward the possessive inflections, then chabiveh dabba could also be translated as "the-beloved-his of-the-Father", even though the "his" becomes a bit superfluous.


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-16-2010

Jerry Wrote:I've noticed that most translators omit the Aramaic "his" possessive when it is followed by an objective qualifying word, as in "of-the-Father". So they would translate chabiveh dabba as "the-beloved of-the-Father". Admittedly, this is the most straight-forward way to express it in English.

But if one is a stickler for carrrying forward the possessive inflections, then chabiveh dabba could also be translated as "the-beloved-his of-the-Father", even though the "his" becomes a bit superfluous.

<!-- sCry --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cry.gif" alt="Cry" title="Crying" /><!-- sCry --> Good sire,

How then should the English phrase "Abba's beloved" or "Father's beloved" be translated into Aramaic? I trust chabiveh dabba would pass, I would just want to hear your explanation. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Thank you. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-16-2010

Paul Younan said it's Khabbiba d'Abba. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - Jerry - 11-16-2010

Quote:How then should the English phrase "Abba's beloved" or "Father's beloved" be translated into Aramaic? I trust chabiveh dabba would pass, I would just want to hear your explanation.
Yes, chabiveh dabba, with the "eh" suffix, would be the Peshitta NT way of expressing the possessive, literally translated as "the-beloved-his of-the-father". Sorry if I made things more confusing.

In Matthew 1:1 for example, there are three "eh" suffixes, making the literal word-for-word translation:

"A-writing of-the-genealogy-his of-Yeshua the-Anointed; the-son-his of-David, the-son-his of-Abraham:"

I was just trying to point out how translators tend to omit the "his" in their translations, because they probably consider it superfluous (unnecessary). Personally, I prefer the more literal word-for-word translations.


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-17-2010

Jerry Wrote:
Quote:How then should the English phrase "Abba's beloved" or "Father's beloved" be translated into Aramaic? I trust chabiveh dabba would pass, I would just want to hear your explanation.
Yes, chabiveh dabba, with the "eh" suffix, would be the Peshitta NT way of expressing the possessive, literally translated as "the-beloved-his of-the-father". Sorry if I made things more confusing.

In Matthew 1:1 for example, there are three "eh" suffixes, making the literal word-for-word translation:

"A-writing of-the-genealogy-his of-Yeshua the-Anointed; the-son-his of-David, the-son-his of-Abraham:"

I was just trying to point out how translators tend to omit the "his" in their translations, because they probably consider it superfluous (unnecessary). Personally, I prefer the more literal word-for-word translations.

Good sire, why does Paul Younan say it's Khabbiba d'Abba? It's getting more confusing. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - Jerry - 11-18-2010

khabbiba is just a different style of transliterating, and would be equivalent to Aaron writing chabiva. So the only difference in Paul's word from Aaron's is that Paul did not include the "eh" ending, which is the possessive for "his".

khabbiba d'abba = "the beloved of the father"
khabbibeh d'abba = "the beloved his of the father"

chabiva dabba = "the beloved of the father"
chabiveh dabba = "the beloved his of the father"

The pattern of the Aramaic writing is to include the "eh" ending in these types of constructions. But it is not a significant matter to worry over.


Re: Aramaic Translation - randelljoseph - 11-20-2010

Jerry Wrote:khabbiba is just a different style of transliterating, and would be equivalent to Aaron writing chabiva. So the only difference in Paul's word from Aaron's is that Paul did not include the "eh" ending, which is the possessive for "his".

khabbiba d'abba = "the beloved of the father"
khabbibeh d'abba = "the beloved his of the father"

chabiva dabba = "the beloved of the father"
chabiveh dabba = "the beloved his of the father"

The pattern of the Aramaic writing is to include the "eh" ending in these types of constructions. But it is not a significant matter to worry over.

Oh. Am pretty new to this and know nothin much on the matter. <!-- sBlush --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/blush.gif" alt="Blush" title="Blush" /><!-- sBlush --> Sorry, and thank you very much! <!-- s:onfire: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/onfire.gif" alt=":onfire:" title="On Fire" /><!-- s:onfire: -->


Re: Aramaic Translation - Karl - 11-23-2010

To sum up, there are three ways you can express "Father's beloved" (I think all three of them have been mentioned in this topic):

1) xabbeev abba (m) or xabbeevath abba (f)

2) xabbeeva d'abba (m) or xabbeevta d'abba (f)

3) xabbeeveh d'abba (m) or xabbeevteh d'abba (f)

I've included both masculine and feminine forms for "beloved". Note that the "x" is either a "kh" sound or a "deep H" depending on dialect or time period. All three of these work for Classical Aramaic/Syriac, but they say the third one is the most common. Based on my dialect, the second construction is the most common one in Neo-Aramaic. I think the first masculine construction could also be interpreted as "the father is beloved" depending on whether you treat xabbeev as an adjective or as a noun.