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Living Soul - Aaron S - 01-07-2010

Shlama,

Is it possible that the appearance of forms of the words [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]04pn[/font] (nafshah) and [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0yx[/font] (chaya) in Luqa 9:24
is an allusion to Genesis 2:7 which says ???????????? ?????????????? Nefesh Chayah?
If so, can anyone venture a guess of what implications this has?

If not, here's a simple related question: although it's basically clear what it means in
Aramaic which reads 'nafsheh', would the best English translation be 'self'?
Because it reads strange to me otherwise... that someone most destroy their soul/breath of life in order to live... has to me a sound of suicide.


Re: Living Soul - Stephen Silver - 01-08-2010

Aaron S Wrote:Shlama,

Is it possible that the appearance of forms of the words [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]04pn[/font] (nafshah) and [font="Estrangelo (V1.1)"]0yx[/font] (chaya) in Luqa 9:24
is an allusion to Genesis 2:7 which says ???????????? ?????????????? Nefesh Chayah?
If so, can anyone venture a guess of what implications this has?

If not, here's a simple related question: although it's basically clear what it means in
Aramaic which reads 'nafsheh', would the best English translation be 'self'?
Because it reads strange to me otherwise... that someone most destroy their soul/breath of life in order to live... has to me a sound of suicide.

Shlama Akhi Aaron:
Humanity is unique. All animated beings are intrinsically "nefesh khayah". (Genesis 1:20, 21, 24, 30 and also 2:7) However in Genesis 2:7 the phrase "nishmat khayim" defines the unique relationship between humanity and our Creator. In Genesis 7:22 the phrase is shown in its full understanding as "nishmat ruakh khayim". It was Job that gave a fuller understanding of what "nashama" is and does. In Job 26:4 it is written....

Job 26:4
"to whom have you narrated speech?"
"et-mi.......higad'ta..........milin"

and (has) my-nashama...gone forth..from you?"
"v'nishmat-.....mi............yatzah....mimekha"

I think it's a somewhat rhetorical question Job is asking his friends. He answers his own question in 27:3.

Job 27:3
"for as yet....my nashama (is) in me"
"ki-kol-od.....nish'mati............vi"

"and the Spirit......of G-d......in my nostrils" (as is stated in Genesis 2:7)
"v'ruakh..............Elohah...........b'afi"

Job 27:4
"My lips will not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit."

Job affirms that, as he states "my-nashama" prevents him from sinning with his tongue, for he has followed the way of the Spirit of Elohim and rests his case with Him. That's just my take on this passage. There may be different thoughts on this.

In other words, "nishmat-ruakh-khayim" is what gives us our "articulating spirit/soul" and is joined to our "nefesh khaya". Nefesh khaya, like any animated creature contains our nature, which is distinctly human while "nishmat-ruakh-khayim" gives us the divine ability to communicate with YHVH Elohim. When Adam sinned he forfeited the divine nature. When Yeshua died for the sins of the world, and rose from the dead he redeemed humanity. We are saved by grace through/by faith in the Living Son of Alaha, our LORD and Saviour Yeshua Meshikha. Through Him all things were created and He it is Who breathed "nishmat-ruakh-khayim" into the nostrils of Adam. (Genesis 2:7)

In the Aramaic portion of Daniel, 5:23, the phrase "di-nish'm'takh" is roughly translated as "that which is your breath" confirms that it is Alaha Whom is the "holder of each and every human soul".

That to say this Aaron. These are only my sincere thoughts on what the soul is intrinsically, from my small understanding of the Hebrew and Aramaic. It was far from suicide that led our gracious LORD to the death of the cross. The redemption of humanity was planned before the Creation of humanity. Redemption in our LORD Yeshua Meshikha is not flawed. Our nature has been flawed by sin and the "tikkun/restoration" of the human soul has been authored by Alaha Himself in the Life of our LORD Yeshua Meshikha.

If you have any further queries please feel free to send me a private message.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research
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Re: Living Soul - Aaron S - 01-08-2010

Yes... Thanks for the response <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Genesis 2:7 'nishmat chayim' = 'breath of life', but at the end of the verse appears 'nefesh chayah' = 'living soul'
I wasn't suggesting suicide as a proper reading of this verse, I was just saying 'destroy your soul to save it' sounds a little that way.
I was mainly wondering if there was possibly a connection between 'nefesh chayah' and 'nafsheh nache'.


Edit as response to below:
nefesh chayah is in Genesis 2:7 TNK
nafsheh nache is in Luqa 9:24 PNT


Re: Living Soul - Stephen Silver - 01-08-2010

Aaron S Wrote:Yes... Thanks for the response <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> Genesis 2:7 'nishmat chayim' = 'breath of life', but at the end of the verse appears 'nefesh chayah' = 'living soul'
I wasn't suggesting suicide as a proper reading of this verse, I was just saying 'destroy your soul to save it' sounds a little that way.
I was mainly wondering if there was possibly a connection between 'nefesh chayah' and 'nafsheh nache'.

Shlama Akhi Aaron:
Sorry, what is "nache"? Please be specific. Where did you find the phrase "naphsheh nache"? I can search, I think it is Luqa 9:24, but for the sake of those that are following this thread I want to leave a record of the book, chapter and verse whether in the T"NK (Jewish Bible), A"NK (Peshitta Old Testament) or the Peshitta New Testament.

Shlama,
Stephen


Re: Living Soul - Jerry - 02-02-2011

Quote:Because it reads strange to me otherwise... that someone most destroy their soul/breath of life in order to live... has to me a sound of suicide.
For as long as I can remember, I have always interpreted Luke 9:24 and its parallel verses as applying to martyrdom. In other words, NOT one taking his own life, but someone taking it away from him because of their belief in Yeshua. Or as defined in the dictionary:

martyr: a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

For whoever willeth to save his life, loseth it; but whoever (is willing) to lose his life, for my sake, he saveth it. - Etheridge

Do others share that interpretation, or might I be off base on it? Admittedly, martyrdom is not specifically implied in the verse, but to not imply it requires an alternative way of viewing the verse. Something more on a figurative level, where one has to put to death his "worldly" life in order to gain his "spiritual" life. Yet, there is no distinction in the verse between "worldly" life and "spiritual" life; both are written as nephesh.

I bring this up mainly because I have been revisiting the word nephesh/(soul), and trying to get a better handle on it.


Re: Living Soul and Luke 9:24 - Stephen Silver - 02-02-2011

Shlama Khulkon:
Indeed, if we cherish nefesh khayia to the neglect of the LivingWORD/Breath of Alaha/nashama we will forfeit our life. We have nefesh khayia like all the living creatures but Alaha made man upright both in stature as well as in moral responsibility. I believe this is another meaning of Luke 9:24-25.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver,
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->


Re: Living Soul - judge - 02-02-2011

As always I would think that Jesus?s reference to ?for my sake? must be taken in that historical conext. Giving up ones life or soul in 30 AD in Judea, for Jesus sake had certain implications which had relevance to them.
The old world/age was passing away, soon (within a generation) the temple would be destroyed and that way of life, with all its weaknesses and shadows would go.
Jesus was calling them to abandon that religion or way of worship and to worship in ?spirit and in truth?.
The divisions of mankind from one another were to be put aside. men were to be called to worship together now.

One might say Jesus was calling on them to ?get real?. In ?getting real? we abandon our worthless empty hopes (which inwardly we know are hollow) that being a member of this or that group or religion will save us.
And so, in losing this false life, life beomes real, and we find our life, as we live authentically and truly.


Re: Living Soul - Andrej - 02-05-2011

Jerry Wrote:Something more on a figurative level, where one has to put to death his "worldly" life in order to gain his "spiritual" life. Yet, there is no distinction in the verse between "worldly" life and "spiritual" life; both are written as nephesh.
Does there really have to be a literal distinction? i always understood the verse in this manner, and i think there is quite a number of verses that change from natural to spiritual (or vv) without any indication. The only thing i can think of at the moment is:
Mar 8:17-18 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
Eze 12:2 Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.
Jer 5:21 Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:
Deu 29:3-4 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Now, this may not even be a good example, but i am sure there are tons of others (just nothing coming to mind,as i never wondered). i guess one could argue the implied transition was from sensory input to mental assimilation rather than natural to spiritual perception, however, the important part is that there is a clear underlying change of meaning, which the context undeniably forces us to accept.


Re: Living Soul - sean - 02-07-2011

Hi, I believe Jesus also means loving him God above all others and living for Him, which in a sense is laying down our lives for Him. Not just living for own own plans and desires but doing God's will. Of course the ultimate sacrifice is dying for Jesus, being a martry, which is also included in that verse.
In psalm 12 it's saids that God's word has been purified seven times, a pastor I know saids that all scriptures have at least seven different layers of meaning, because it has been refined or purified seven times.


Re: Living Soul - Andrej - 02-07-2011

Andrej Wrote:(just nothing coming to mind,as i never wondered)
another example, of course, is God in eden.
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Interestingly, the word "day" and the word "die" cannot be both spiritual or both natural at the same time. It has always been my view that they died spiritually in a natural day, whereas they died naturally in a spiritual day (1000 years).