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Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Printable Version

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Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Andrew Gabriel Roth - 03-24-2009

Shlama all---

I was referrring to John 5:2 in the Greek. It says that that there IS in Jerusalem a pool called Beth Khisda. Peshitta puts that in the the past tense, and that is probably correct, but nevertheless the Greek reading has been a cause of much speculation that John may have been writing at a time when Jerusalem and Beth Khisda was still standing. Certainly Rev 11 implies a pre 70 vision.


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Thirdwoe - 03-24-2009

...

Thanks Andrew,

I just checked both the Northern & Southern Coptic Gospel of John at this verse and they both give the past tense there like does the Peshitta. I thought that the Coptic was translated from the Greek? If so, then the Coptic should read 'is' not 'Was' in that verse.... The Vulgate goes with the Greek reading 'is'....

...hummm

...


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 03-25-2009

breekh saphro akh Phil,

Phil Wrote:So we have at least two witnesses to the Gospel (or Gospels):

The one who transcribed or compiled this manuscript (probably Mar Elia III) and Mor Makeekho.

Now I'm wondering if this Mor Makeekho, bishop of Gesluna, is indeed the same as Mar Makhikka Bar Shlemon, Patriarch of the CoE (1092-1110).

Unfortunately the catalog provides the information in little pieces. If we had access to the full manuscript we could fill the gaps.

I've found the possibility of two different places for getting a copy of the Mar Eliya III(Abu Halim ibn al-Hadithi) manuscript text (Collects and prayers for the whole year):
-Rylands Syr 27 dated 17th February AG 2051 = AD 1740
-Cambridge MSS; Add. 1978, [40], [56] and Add. 2038, [40].

I've sent a letter a few days ago to the John Rylands Libraray asking them how I can go about getting a copy, and I haven't heard from them yet.

If don't hear back from them, I'll try Cambridge next.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - enarxe - 03-25-2009

Cambridge is stone's throw from where I live. If I can be of any help just let me know.
Jerzy


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 03-26-2009

shlom lokh akh Jerzy,

enarxe Wrote:Cambridge is stone's throw from where I live. If I can be of any help just let me know.

I would appreciate any help you can offer in seeing if one of the following manuscripts is available:
-Mar Eliya III(Abu Halim ibn al-Hadithi) manuscript text (Collects and prayers for the whole year) -- Cambridge MSS; Add. 1978, [40], [56] and Add. 2038, [40].
(now both of these manuscripts should be the same, in theory)

See if they are accessible? See if they're on microfilm or book format? and how we can get a copy of it (i.e. straight print out off the microfilm, digitised images, etc...)

Thank you ahead of time,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 03-30-2009

shlom lkhun,

After working with Jerzy and reviewing the Catalogues for Cambridge, we can strike out the manuscripts marked as ADD.1978 and ADD.2038. Because although they're based on his Mar Eliya III's work, it's not copied in full, and it is used as a reference by a later scribe to construct his feasts' table.

Here's a link to the catalogue:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ia360921.us.archive.org/3/items/catalogueofsyria01camb/catalogueofsyria01camb_bw.pdf">http://ia360921.us.archive.org/3/items/ ... amb_bw.pdf</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://ia311313.us.archive.org/3/items/catalogueofsyria02camb/catalogueofsyria02camb_bw.pdf">http://ia311313.us.archive.org/3/items/ ... amb_bw.pdf</a><!-- m -->

P.S. These catalogues have a lot of Assyrian references, so they might be useful for members of the COE to look at, and Cambridge seems to be willing to make reproductions of these manuscripts for a fee!

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - BrotherLarry - 03-30-2009

Shlama Akhi keefa-morun,

Would <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.syriacstudies.com">www.syriacstudies.com</a><!-- w --> be a good research website for additional clues when we run into problems of this nature?

I wish this wasn't such a frustrating quest !! <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->

Wishing you the best, Larry Kelsey


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 03-31-2009

shlomo akh Larry,

I hear you! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

I will try to email them to see if they can give us a helping hand.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 03-31-2009

shlom lkhun,

I'm now trying to get my hand on the following book, which apparently has the Aramaic text:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=k4Q8HAAACAAJ&dq=Des+nestorianischen+Patriarchen+Elias+iii&lr=&as_brr=0">http://books.google.com/books?id=k4Q8HA ... =&as_brr=0</a><!-- m -->

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 04-02-2009

shlomo,

I just got back the following response in regards to the manuscript that started this conversation:

The manuscript you cited is Vaticanus Syriacus 91. It is described in:
Bibliothecae Apost. Vaticanae codicum manuscriptorum catalogum... ,
Stephanus Evodius Assemani... et Joseph Simonius Assemanus...
recensuerunt..., Partis primae, Tomus secundus complectens codices
Chaldaicos sive Syriacos, Romae MDCCLVIII, p. 489-493 (but the quote at p.
492).
The Vatican Library is lcosed, at the moment, and you can't access the
manuscript.
You can ask for a digital copy visitng the following web site:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?pag=modulistica">http://www.vaticanlibrary.va/home.php?pag=modulistica</a><!-- m -->


So it seems that we will be able to get our hands on it, and for around 50 Euros if I understood the Italian properly.

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - ograabe - 04-02-2009

The application for images for private study indicates the availability of the microfilm images on CD-ROM for up to 200 pages for 50 Euro and 20 Euro for each additional 100 pages. Howe many pages are in the manuscript?

The microfilm is not too useful unless you have access to a microfilm readers or printer. Prints from microfilm are available but are expensive. So, the CD-ROM seems to be the best choice.

Otto


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Phil - 04-02-2009

ograabe Wrote:Howe many pages are in the manuscript?

Otto,

According to the catalog of Assemani, the manuscript contain 149 folios.

Shlama


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Thirdwoe - 04-02-2009

...

Rafa says above:
Quote:So we can see a digital copy of the document that started this entire thread?! Wow that's cool. The actual autograph??? for 50 euros we get a digital copy? Pray for this one to be right Akhi Abudar....

Phil,

Regarding your quote below, and Rafa's quote above, how is this Codex Syr. 91 the A.D. 78 Gospel Manuscript and not just the commentary that has the inscription alluding to the A.D. 78 Gospel?

Quote:Shlama Paul,

I think I made a mistake here.

A more complete description of this Codex Syr. 91 is here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/docum">http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/docum</a><!-- m --> ... 1968&REC=3

On the left menu, click Part 1 Volume 2, and then look for the page 489.

This is not the Gospel itself. I think it is a series of commentaries and homilies, mainly by an Elia III.

At the page 492 there is only the description of the inscription related to this Gospel of 78 A.D.

If I read correctly the latin, this description occurs in the folio 140 of the manuscript.

So we have here a manuscript with a copy of the inscription. The manuscript of the Gospel itself is elswhere.

Sorry for the mistake.

...


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - abudar2000 - 04-02-2009

shlomo,

This is definitely the Commentary manuscript of Mar Eliya III. What is significant about getting a copy of it, is that there's a possibility that the author described the Gospel further in his commentary and possibly quoted some parts of it, which would prove invaluable.

I'm very excited with the prospect of getting a copy of it!

push bashlomo,
keefa-morun


Re: Earliest known date attached to four Gospels - Phil - 04-03-2009

Shlama Akhi Thirdwoe

As Keefa said above, this is the manuscript of Mar Elia III (although other names also appear), the same that started the whole discussion. It contains 149 folios, and the references to the Gospel is on folio 140.

The problem was: when the author William Norton quoted this manuscript (see the very first post on this thread), he did not take into consideration that this manuscript contained only the reference, a copy of the colophon of the Gospel. I think W. Norton never checked the catalog to see what it was. And as I saw in other books that cite this manuscript, no other author has checked it, just copied the reference to the gospel from the catalog (I myself made the same mistake, I only looked over the inscription, not the entire description).

I hope this makes some sense...

Shlama

Thirdwoe Wrote:...

Rafa says above:
Quote:So we can see a digital copy of the document that started this entire thread?! Wow that's cool. The actual autograph??? for 50 euros we get a digital copy? Pray for this one to be right Akhi Abudar....

Phil,

Regarding your quote below, and Rafa's quote above, how is this Codex Syr. 91 the A.D. 78 Gospel Manuscript and not just the commentary that has the inscription alluding to the A.D. 78 Gospel?

Quote:Shlama Paul,

I think I made a mistake here.

A more complete description of this Codex Syr. 91 is here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/docum">http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/docum</a><!-- m --> ... 1968&REC=3

On the left menu, click Part 1 Volume 2, and then look for the page 489.

This is not the Gospel itself. I think it is a series of commentaries and homilies, mainly by an Elia III.

At the page 492 there is only the description of the inscription related to this Gospel of 78 A.D.

If I read correctly the latin, this description occurs in the folio 140 of the manuscript.

So we have here a manuscript with a copy of the inscription. The manuscript of the Gospel itself is elswhere.

Sorry for the mistake.

...