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My God my God... - Printable Version

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Re: My God my God... - Paul Younan - 10-26-2013

Shlama Akhi

As you know Christian tradition is rich in the understanding that Psalm 22 is a messianic psalm. This is also true of our own tradition.

Whether or not He was quoting the first line of Psalm 22, I'm not sure. The Peshitta psalm reads identical. The Hebrew root there is an ancient root from Assyrian/Akkadian. It is the exact cognate of the Aramaic Sh-b-q. It also has the same shades of meaning as I mentioned above.

For instance, see Leviticus 23:22 for the shade meaning "spare".

I think both David and Jesus were looking for a completion of an action they are praying for, an end result. For David, that was a deliverance from his enemies. And for Christ, the only way off the Cross. The completion of His mission. I don't think either of them felt God had forsaken them.

We do know that those condemned to a death sentence only fear one thing more than the inevitable moment of death, and that is a prolonged suffering. We do know that by the time Christ uttered these words, several hours of the most excruciating torture had transpired. I personally believe He was pleading for an end to the pain, and not that He felt God had abandoned Him in any way.

+Shamasha


Re: My God my God... - ScorpioSniper2 - 10-27-2013

That's an interesting take on it. I have always thought (personally), that "forsaken" fits the passage better. I don't think that Jesus was actually forsaken by God either way, He was simply showing His feelings by quoting Psalms 22:1 (simultaneously showing Himself to be the Messiah). David clearly didn't believe that God had forsaken him, but he felt abandoned. I think Jesus felt abandoned, but knew that God hadn't left Him alone. Here is a good article that reflects my opinion on the subject:

http://onenesspentecostal.com/GodLeaveJesusOnCross.htm

You might disagree with some of his Christology, but his reasoning behind Matthew 27:46 is quite interesting. If I ever do translate the Peshitta New Testament, I'll probably just transliterate the phrase and leave it up to the reader to interpret what Jesus was saying. Have a footnote saying that shawakthani can be translated as either "forsaken" or "spared". What is the Church of the East's traditional teaching on the subject? You, Vic Alexander, and George Lamsa all share similar ideas as to how this passage should be translated.


Re: My God my God... - distazo - 10-27-2013

Akhi Paul,

Thanks for the explanation. I already have learned here that the Peshitta Psalms read the same.

The other explanations, for how it -could have- been translated really look far fetched to me.

Some options I have read

1 Yeshu citates Psalms 22: it ends in a victorial climax
2 Yeshu simply feels abandoned, whynot, he was human, was he not?

3 Yeshu was prepared to take up much more torture, and he was angry that he died so quickly, therefore, he said: "God, why have you spared me?"
4 Yeshu simply shouted: "For this I was kept!"
5 ??

All options above, have some problems, but option 1 is something he already did during his live on earth. Simply quoting scripture to fullfil it.

2 would he contradict his own words, that the Father never would forsake him? This would make him a sinner, since he never lied, even under pressure.
3 There is a -lot- against this argument. First of all, he prayed in the garden, while sweating blood, and asked if the cup of his death would pass (so, was he really as if he liked the pain to endure more???). Second, he was human and the pain must have been enormous. Fouth, there IS a reason he died so quickly. He took up ALL our sins (Isayah 54:3,4) so he literally was struck with sickness of all kinds of sickness and pains humans had to bear including his torture by the Romans.
4 This was not the single reason why Jesus came to earth, just to be kept, to die for us. So, as a last line in his earthly life, it makes no sense

Just my 2 cents to chew on... <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


Re: My God my God... - ScorpioSniper2 - 10-27-2013

You bring up some fascinating points. This is a really deep passage to study for Christology. I believe that God did not literally forsake Jesus on the cross, but He didn't offer any special assistance to Him, therefore Jesus felt forsaken and was expressing His emotions by quoting the Psalm. He was basically saying that He felt like David felt. Here is the full Psalm from the NASB:

My God, my God, why have You forsaken me?
Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning.
O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer;
And by night, but I have no rest.
Yet You are holy,
O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel.
In You our fathers trusted;
They trusted and You delivered them.
To You they cried out and were delivered;
In You they trusted and were not disappointed.
But I am a worm and not a man,
A reproach of men and despised by the people.
All who see me sneer at me;
They separate with the lip, they wag the head, saying,
?Commit yourself to the Lord; let Him deliver him;
Let Him rescue him, because He delights in him.?
Yet You are He who brought me forth from the womb;
You made me trust when upon my mother?s breasts.
Upon You I was cast from birth;
You have been my God from my mother?s womb.
Be not far from me, for trouble is near;
For there is none to help.
Many bulls have surrounded me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled me.
They open wide their mouth at me,
As a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water,
And all my bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It is melted within me.
My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And my tongue cleaves to my jaws;
And You lay me in the dust of death.
For dogs have surrounded me;
A band of evildoers has encompassed me;
They pierced my hands and my feet.
I can count all my bones.
They look, they stare at me;
They divide my garments among them,
And for my clothing they cast lots.
But You, O Lord, be not far off;
O You my help, hasten to my assistance.
Deliver my soul from the sword,
My only life from the power of the dog.
Save me from the lion?s mouth;
From the horns of the wild oxen You answer me.
I will tell of Your name to my brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
You who fear the Lord, praise Him;
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And stand in awe of Him, all you [s]descendants of Israel.
For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from him;
But when he cried to Him for help, He heard.
From You comes my praise in the great assembly;
I shall pay my vows before those who fear Him.
The afflicted will eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
For the kingdom is the Lord?s
And He rules over the nations.
All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.
Posterity will serve Him;
It will be told of the Lord to the coming generation.
They will come and will declare His righteousness
To a people who will be born, that He has performed it.

Like you mentioned in your post, Distazo, Psalms does in victory. The thought at the end of David's Psalm is echoed in Jesus saying, "It is finished" in John 19:30. You can't read the first verse or so of Psalms 22 and expect to get the whole message of what David's writing. Or here is another theory, could Jesus have simply been telling people that He was the Messiah by quoting this Messianic Psalm? It is clearly about Jesus' sacrifice for humanity on the cross. The question is if the Jewish people knew at that time that it was about the Messiah.


Re: My God my God... - Charles Wilson - 10-27-2013

Hello Everyone-

Distazo: I want to give an answer to your #5.

Younan: "...Why have you spared me?"
Lamsa: "...For this I was spared?"

This makes sense in a particular way that immediately makes "Primary", First Level sense.
I have stated that I believe that this is as perfect a fit as could be found. Why?

If Yeshu has faced a situation where he was to be killed, as in D-E-A-D, as in "No Way Out" and yet somehow survived, he would have faced the Crucifixion with the question of, "For this was I spared?.
It is not a matter of doubting God. That is why I quoted several passages in previous Posts. Yeshu taught in the Temple and at ANY time, he could have been taken. When he "...meant to pass them by" during the squall, "They shrieked" as if they had seen a ghost.

Luke 19 (Vic Alexander, with note):

39. Some of the Pharisees, from among the crowd, told him. "Rabbi, tell* your disciples to be quiet."
40. He told them. "I am telling you, if they be quiet, the stones will cry out."

"*19:39 Lit. Ar. "Yell at them." "

Pick up a rock and hold it up to someone who is yelling at you and see if there is a different feel to "...the stones will cry out". You do not have to accept this interpretation but the point should be clear. If Yeshu faced CERTAIN death and yet lived and he KNEW where he was going and what was waiting for him when he went to Jerusalem for the Passover, it would make sense to wonder, "For this was I spared?" or "Why have you spared me?" You may have to find your own peace with this idea but realize that there were many times Yeshu faced death - and survived.
The question is then:

Why this? Why now?

CW


Re: My God my God... - ScorpioSniper2 - 10-27-2013

I just think that "Why have you spared me?" doesn't make much sense in the context of the passage. That's just my opinion though! I'm perfectly willing to accept being wrong but I don't see it right now. Here is an article I wrote on my blog about the subject:

The words, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" have troubled many Christians. This is one of the most well-known sayings of Jesus (recorded in two Gospels: Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34). Was Jesus literally forsaken by God? I personally don't think so.

The Aramaic New Testament uses the phrase, "Eil, Eil, lamana shwaqthani?". Jesus was clearly quoting Psalms 22, which opens with these words. In Hebrew it says, "Eli, Eli, lamah, azbatani?" The Psalm opens with the despair of King David and his cry to God for help, but the Psalm ends on a totally different note. The Psalm ends with David praising God for His deliverance. Psalms 22 is not only similar to Jesus' crucifixion in this respect, but also in the fact that it describes the crucifixion in great detail before this instrument of torture and execution was devised (verses 14-17).

This establishes the fact that Psalm 22 is a Messianic Psalm, prophetic of the suffering of our Lord Jesus the Messiah. Psalm 22 was also a very well-known Psalm around the time of the crucifixion (and still is now, for obvious reasons). So when Jesus quoted the first verse, those who could understand Him (many thought He was crying for Elijah, which is Aramaic is Eliya and in Hebrew is Eliyahu, as you can see in Matthew 27:47), probably would have connected the dots and came to see that Jesus was the long-awaited Messiah.

What I am saying here, is that Jesus is making another claim to the Messianic office during His crucifixion, which was clearly prophesied of by King David in Psalm 22 and the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 53. This though, is not the only explanation for this difficult verse.

Apostolic theologian Jason Dulle suggests that Jesus is merely expressing His anguish by quoting the 22nd Psalm. David felt forsaken but clearly knew that God hadn't (read the whole Psalm and you'll see what I mean). In the same way, Jesus felt forsaken, but He knew God hadn't abandoned Him.

Another explanation that is brought forth by Aramaic speaking scholars is that "shwaqthani" (commonly transliterated as "sabachthani"), is mistranslated and misunderstood. George M. Lamsa, a native Aramaic-speaking scholar, translates Matthew 27:46 as, "And about the ninth hour, Jesus cried out with a loud voice and said, Eli, Eli, lmana shabachthani! which means, My God, my God, for this I was spared!"

"Shwaq" is the root of "shwaqthani" and it can be translated as follows: "forgive", "leave", or "allow". The problem with Lamsa's translation is that the Aramaic word "lamana" is used for questions. Paul Younan, another native Aramaic speaker, translates it this way, "And about the ninth hour, Yeshua cried out with a load voice and said, My God! My God! Why have you spared me?" Younan has explained this as Jesus, who had been suffering for six hours, saying "Why must this go on? Let's get this over with!" People who believe "shwaq" should be translated as "spared", cite John 16:32 as evidence that Jesus could not have been forsaken by God. The Peshitta Old Testament translation of Psalms 22:1 uses the same words as that of Jesus on the cross. The word "azbatani" that is used in the original Hebrew can only mean "forsaken" or "left", while "shwaq" can mean "forgive", "leave", or "allow" (as stated previously).

I personally think that "forsaken" or "left" best fits the context of the crucifixion. Matthew records the people mocking Jesus, using the same phrases used in the 22nd Psalm (compare Psalm 22:8 with Matthew 27:43). But I believe that Jesus merely felt forsaken, and was expressing His feelings of abandonment by quoting David's words. Jesus was not saying that God had forsaken Him, but that He felt alone. Jesus was also showing us another example of how the Tanakh (Old Testament) Scriptures point to Him as ha-Mashiyach (the Messiah or the Christ, the Anointed One).



Re: My God my God... - Thirdwoe - 10-28-2013

"would he contradict his own words, that the Father never would forsake him?"

Again, where does Jesus ever say this, Distazo? I can't find it..and you have provided no verse number the two times you say He says it. Please, if you know where, I would like to look at it. Thanks.


Re: My God my God... - ScorpioSniper2 - 10-28-2013

It's a reference to John 16:32.

"Behold, the hour cometh, and hath now come, when ye will be dispersed, each to his place; and ye will leave me alone. But I am not alone, for the Father is with me."- Murdock

This doesn't necessarily say that it isn't possible for Jesus to be forsaken. He said "The Father is [present tense] with Me". I still agree though that God didn't actually forsake Jesus. I feel no need to repeat my reasoning as I have done that a thousand times. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/laugh.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laugh" /><!-- s:lol: -->


Re: My God my God... - distazo - 10-28-2013

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:It's a reference to John 16:32.

"Behold, the hour cometh, and hath now come, when ye will be dispersed, each to his place; and ye will leave me alone. But I am not alone, for the Father is with me."- Murdock

I think since Aramaic does not have a 'future' tense, it can be translated in future tense according to the understanding of the context, since the sentence before also is translated like that,

you -will- forsake me. (note the -forsake- which is a form of shbaq)
but I will not be alone,
because the Father is with me.



Re: My God my God... - ScorpioSniper2 - 10-28-2013

Yes, I forgot about there not being a past or future tense in Hebrew and Aramaic. But even still, this would not prove that shwaqthani should be translated as "spared me". It would simply continue in its state as a possibility. I just don't think it makes sense in context. Again, that's just me <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


Re: My God my God... - Thirdwoe - 10-28-2013

Ok...Brother, but If that is what you were thinking of, it does not say what you said, though.

You said this in those two quotes: 1st: "My father will never leave me" 2nd: "the Father never would forsake him". But, He did not say that though. He said that The Father is "with Him", and it was certainly true, and had been so, but, does that statement have to mean that it would or could never happen? Perhaps Jesus didn't know that it was going to happen on the Cross, if it did happen that The Father separated from Him in some way, right before He tasted death (died).

Now, I don't think (if it did happen this way) that The Father "forsook" Jesus in anyway, as if He "rejected" Him somehow. That is not what I am saying here...but, only that He departed from Him in some way, which was felt by Jesus in His humanity. Remember, in His Divinity, He was GOD The Word/The Miltha. Being One with The Father and The Holy Spirit. I.e. He being part of The Trinity, as to His Divine Nature.

So...look ---> We know that the verse in Hebrews 2:9, as found in the Eastern Aramaic Peshitta, and mentioned by Origen, as being present in the early 3rd century (240 A.D.) Greek Manuscripts, and which says this: ---> "...for, apart from Alaha, for every man, He tasted death."

My thoughts on a possible connection to being "apart from Alaha" on the Cross, when Jesus dies (tasted death), and Alaha departing from Jesus on the Cross, just before He dies (tasted death).

1: Do we say that The Father tasted death too, when His Son, in His humanity, tasted death? Does Eternal God, in His divinity, die by the hands of men? Can man kill God? I think not. I say they killed God's only begotten Son...but, only His humanity, not His divinity.

2: Notice that Jesus said this right before He tasted death, (lets say it was) "My God, My God, why have you departed from me?" Which words in English the Aramaic allows that it be translated, and this would make perfect sense, if Jesus indeed was apart from God at that moment, right before He died, as Hebrews 2:9 says. He then entrusts His spirit into The Father's care, and dies in His humanity a few seconds later.

3: So no, He isn't "forsaken", as if He is rejected by God, His Father, but there does seem to have been a separation right before He tasted death, as Heb 2:9 indicates.

Is this not possible? And if not, please show me why not?


Shlama,
Chuck

.


Re: My God my God... - distazo - 10-28-2013

Thirdwoe Wrote:Ok...Brother, but If that is what you were thinking of, it does not say what you said, though.

You said this in those two quotes: 1st: "My father will never leave me" 2nd: "the Father never would forsake him". But, He did not say that though. He said that The Father is "with Him", and it was certainly true, and had been so, but, does that statement have to mean that it would or could never happen? Perhaps Jesus didn't know that it was going to happen on the Cross, if it did happen that The Father separated from Him in some way, right before He tasted death (died).
Is this not possible? And if not, please show me why not?


Shlama,
Chuck

.



Chuck,

Lets repeat myself <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

"You will forsake me,
but I will not be alone
because my Father is with me"


It also implies that the Father will -not- forsake him, because he will be with him.


Re: My God my God... - Paul Younan - 10-28-2013

Shlama Akhi Scorpio,

The blog assertion that a-z-b in Hebrew cannot mean "spared", "forgiven" or "reserved" is incorrect. It indeed does have those shades of meaning in Hebrew, Arabic and in the Akkadian root from which both are drawn.

+Shamasha


Re: My God my God... - Paul Younan - 10-28-2013

ScorpioSniper2 Wrote:What is the Church of the East's traditional teaching on the subject? You, Vic Alexander, and George Lamsa all share similar ideas as to how this passage should be translated.

The concept of God having "forsaken" Himself, or the concept of the Messiah having uttered such a thing as the English implies with the implication of that term, is a completely foreign concept in the understanding and patristic history of the CoE.

+Shamasha


Re: My God my God... - gregglaser - 10-28-2013

I find it relevant that the Aramaic-speaking people who heard Yahshua that day had a difficult time deciphering the meaning of his last words there on the cross. See e.g. Matthew 27:47, ?This [man] to Elijah calls??

It seems quite possible therefore that Yahshua was not speaking Aramaic in this one instance, but rather temple Hebrew. In that Hebrew language, Yahshua?s last words might be translated ?Strength, strength, to the appointed time be releasing me.?

Strong?s Concordance 352 (ayl) - strength
Strong?s Concorance 4483 (mna) ? appointed time
Strong?s Concordance 7662 (Shbq) ? release, forgive