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John 1:41 - Printable Version

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John 1:41 - judge - 04-09-2008

The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ).

In Greek
???????????????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????????? ?????? ?????????? ???????????? ?????? ?????????? ????????, ?????????????????? ?????? ?????????????? ?? ?????????? ???????????????????????????????? ??????????????

This verse seems to be another 'smoking gun" that the greek text is a tranlation from the peshitta. The greek translator transliterated the Aramaic title for Messiah in the greek text, then added the explantion that this meant annointed.

There is of course no explanation in the peshitta as one would expect in an original.

Re: John 1:41 - gbausc - 04-09-2008

Shlama Akhi Judge,

Its been a while! Good to hear from you. Your comment on John 1:41 shows you to be a man after my own heart. I have an extensive note on John 1:41 in my interlinear. Notice the Greek text transliterates the Aramaic "Meshikha" (pronounced "Mesheekha" or "Mesheeha") as "Messias" in Greek letters from whence we get the English "Messiah" , which Greek transliteration Thayers states to be from Aramaic; then the Greek text has ?? ?????????? ???????????????????????????????? ??????????????, which means literally, "which is being translated, Christos." The Greek writer is telling his reader that Yeshua's title was "Messias" (Aramaic) which is translated "Christos" (in Greek). He is saying that this very text is a translation of Aramaic into Greek. He is also saying that our Lord was called by an Aramaic title (Messias-Meshikha-Messiah), not by a Greek title. The Greek "Christos" is a translation of His actual Aramaic title. Surely this tells us that The Messiah was not called "Christ" by his disciples, which means they were not Greek speakers. It also tells us that the title "Christos"
is not the original but a Greek translation of the original in all 565 places where it is found in the Greek NT! Yeshua was not called "Christos" by his disciples, but "Meshikha", therefore, every reference to Him as "Christos" is testimony to that text as a translation, not as an original.
John 4:25 has the same formula in Greek:
1.Aramaic transliteration, "Messias"
2. "which is translated",
3. Greek translation "Christos"

But the Gospels and Acts have 10 such places where Aramaic is transliterated and then said to be translated into Greek: "Ephatha",which is "be opened" (Mark 7:34)
"Talitha qumi",which is, when translated??????O damsel! to thee, I say, Arise!(Mark 5:41) ,
"Eli Eli Lama shabakhthani" that is, My God! my God! to what end hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46,
"Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"-Mark 15:34
Mr 15:22 And they bring him unto the place Golgotha, which is, being translated, The place of a skull.
Joh 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being translated, Master,) where dwellest thou?
Joh 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being translated, the Christ.
John 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by translation, Petros.
Joh 4:25 (YLT) The woman saith to him, ???I have known that Messiah doth come, who is called Christ, when that one may come, he will tell us all things;???
Ac 4:36 And Joses, who by the apostles was surnamed Barnabas, (which is, being translated, The son of consolation,) a Levite, and of the country of Cyprus,

I have also the following from a note on James 5:4
The Greek has sabawy ??????Sabaoth??? which is a Hebrew word; it is also found in The Aramaic Targums just as it is here in The Peshitta ??? twabu and in Hebrew: Here is the note from Thayer???s Greek English Lexicon :
4519 sabawy sabaoth sab-ah-owth???
of Hebrew origin 06635 twabu in feminine plural; ; n indecl
AV-sabaoth 2; 2
1) "Lord of Sabaoth"
1a) Lord of the armies of Israel, as those who are under the leadership and protection of Jehovah maintain his cause in war.

The LXX has the word sabaoth 61 times as a transliteration of twabu . twabu occurs twice in The Peshitta NT & sabawy twice in The Greek NT. It certainly is not Greek, anymore than these Aramaic terms in the Greek NT are Greek: Sabbata,Mammona,Rabbi,Kepha,Pascha,Satana, Boanerges, Messias,Abba,Maranatha,Talitha Cumi,Eli Eli lama sabacthani, Ephatha, Rabboni,Beelzebub,Abaddon, and many others. The total occurrences of the above amount to over 200 occurrences; Other terms occur many times in The Greek NT, such as ???Christos???, declared in John 1:41 Greek text to be a translation of ???mesian???(Messiah) in the phrase: mesian o estin meyermhneuomenon cristov ??????The Messiah, which is translated, ???The Christ???.
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia has this ???mesian??? as ???Aramaic??? .
meyermhneuomenon ?????? 3177 meyermhneuw methermeneuo meth-er-mane-yoo???-o from 3326 and 2059; ; v AV-being interpreted 6, be by interpretation 1; 7 1) to translate into the language of one with whom I wish to communicate, to interpret???.
???Messiah??? is the term by which Yeshua was called; this is Aramaic, in agreement with The language of first century Israel. ???Christos??? occurs 563 times in The Majority Byzantine Greek NT. Those 563 occurrences are therefore each and all translations of the Aramaic ???axysm??? (Meshiha).Along with John 1:41, John 4:25 in Greek has the woman at the well , a Samaritan, using the phrase, mesiav ercetai o legomenov cristov ??????The Messiah, who is called The Christ.??? Was she speaking Hebrew? No, a Samaritan woman would not be speaking Hebrew. Mesiav- ???The Messiah???. She obviously was not speaking Greek.The Greek transliterates the Aramaic ???axysm??? (Meshiha) with the same word ???mesiav??? used in John 1:41, to represent what Andrew said to Simon Peter. In both places, the word cristov is shown to be the Greek for the Aramaic word, transliterated as Mesiav.There is both transliteration and translation at work in both places (as in four others).


Dave Bauscher

Re: John 1:41 - Mike Kar - 08-27-2008

Hello David!!

But looking at this through the lens of a Greek Primacist (I am no saying I am one as of now) or through another window I may not see the problem here. All John could be doing was writing the common name that the disciples used to call Jesus, that is Messiah. But to clarify what he meant to his Greek audience he gave the "translation" statement. I don't see how this could be solid proof in favor of an Aramaic Primacy position. thank-you, David. So one might ask why would John do this in the first place? why would he not just say something like, ". . . we have found the "Kristos" . . ." My own interpretation to this question would be because Messiah/Messian was a popular name to those Hebrews and was used quite often when the disciples addressed Jesus in Hebrew/or Aramaic. So John just wanted to write out the title to educateinform his readers Just food for thought.