Peshitta Forum
CoE on eschatology - Printable Version

+- Peshitta Forum (http://peshitta.org/for)
+-- Forum: Communities (http://peshitta.org/for/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Church of the East Forum (http://peshitta.org/for/forumdisplay.php?fid=22)
+--- Thread: CoE on eschatology (/showthread.php?tid=1523)



CoE on eschatology - Christina - 02-28-2008

Shlama CoE brethren,

Do you know where I can get some CoE commentaries on eschatology? Even though Revelation is not in your cannon, do you teach it and study it? What are your views on these popular eschatological debates:

1. preterism, futurism, historism, idealism
2. premellinialism, amellinialism, postmellinialism
3. literal vs allegorical interpreation of the visions of Daniel and Revelation

I would love to get an Eastern/Aramaic perpestive on this topic.

Thanks,
Christina.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 02-29-2008

Christina Wrote:1. preterism, futurism, historism, idealism
2. premellinialism, amellinialism, postmellinialism
3. literal vs allegorical interpreation of the visions of Daniel and Revelation

Hi Christina,

Personally I've never heard or read of a single sermon or teaching on any of these topics from within the CoE. I can comment that on the 3rd question, literal vs. allegorical, the CoE patrimony typically follows the "Antiochian School" of thought in that the general tendency of literal/scientific interpretations in both theological formulations and prophesy are preferred.

As you may know, Revelation has never been in the equation.

Generally speaking, there's really no focus in the CoE about "end-times" stuff.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Christina - 02-29-2008

Thanks for the reply akhi Paul. So then what is the CoE opinion on the prophecies of Daniel and the Gog and Magog war (Ezekiel 38-39)? Is it true that the Peshitta Tanakh calls Gog "China" and Magog "Mongolia"? If yes, how did the Peshitta Tanakh get that readintg?

Once again, thanks so much for help.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 02-29-2008

Christina Wrote:Thanks for the reply akhi Paul. So then what is the CoE opinion on the prophecies of Daniel and the Gog and Magog war (Ezekiel 38-39)? Is it true that the Peshitta Tanakh calls Gog "China" and Magog "Mongolia"? If yes, how did the Peshitta Tanakh get that readintg?

Once again, thanks so much for help.

Hey Christina,

Please see the following:

http://www.oxuscom.com/Medieval_Syriac_Historians_on_the_Turks.pdf


Re: CoE on eschatology - Christina - 02-29-2008

Thanks again,

I've always believed Gog and Magog had something to do with the Turks.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 02-29-2008

Christina Wrote:Thanks again,

I've always believed Gog and Magog had something to do with the Turks.

One thing Greeks and Assyrians have always agreed on is the Turks! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

You know, we had them all Christian at one time before they converted to Islam!


Re: CoE on eschatology - Christina - 03-02-2008

Paul Younan Wrote:One thing Greeks and Assyrians have always agreed on is the Turks! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Very true! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> Even today, if you take a trip to Greece, the Greeks still can't stand them, and refer to them as "sekhameni Turki" (bloodsucking Turks). (Including my relatives in Thessaloniki, my grandparents were from Turkey). And they still refuse to call Istanbul by it's new name, they'll only ever call it "Konstantinopoli". Even the Arabs can't stand them!

Quote:You know, we had them all Christian at one time before they converted to Islam!

What can I say, the enemy is determined to undo any work we do for MarYah & His Son. I've read before that the pre-Islamic Turks tried out different faiths including Buddhaism & Judaism, in addition to "Nestorian" Christianity (so yes you were right about that). And to think that the apostle Paul spent so much time & effort in the region (Asia Minor) bringing the gentiles to faith in Y'shua, but now it's infested with the "antichrist" spirit (same goes for Mesopotamia & the rest of the Mid East)!

BTW what is your opinion of all those OT prophecies about "the Assyrian"? Sorry, Bible Prophecy is a huge interest for me.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 03-03-2008

Christina Wrote:Very true! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> Even today, if you take a trip to Greece, the Greeks still can't stand them, and refer to them as "sekhameni Turki" (bloodsucking Turks). (Including my relatives in Thessaloniki, my grandparents were from Turkey). And they still refuse to call Istanbul by it's new name, they'll only ever call it "Konstantinopoli". Even the Arabs can't stand them!

All four of my grandparents were from modern-day Turkey as well.

I like the bloodsucking quote: my grandfather used to tell me if I ever shook the hand of a Turk to count my fingers when I got it back. =)

'Course he watched both of his parents get their neck sliced off and thrown into a pit of Christian bodies because they wouldn't convert to Islam. And his little sister was kidnapped by them never to be seen again. Then they cut his neck (at 12 years old), but they missed the major arteries and he survived.

Can't blame him too much for those harsh feelings. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->

Christina Wrote:What can I say, the enemy is determined to undo any work we do for MarYah & His Son. I've read before that the pre-Islamic Turks tried out different faiths including Buddhaism & Judaism, in addition to "Nestorian" Christianity (so yes you were right about that). And to think that the apostle Paul spent so much time & effort in the region (Asia Minor) bringing the gentiles to faith in Y'shua, but now it's infested with the "antichrist" spirit (same goes for Mesopotamia & the rest of the Mid East)!

Once the Cradle of Civilization, now the Armpit of Satan. =)

Christina Wrote:BTW what is your opinion of all those OT prophecies about "the Assyrian"? Sorry, Bible Prophecy is a huge interest for me.

Personally, I believe in the prophetic rebirth of Assyria:

"In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptian shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:" (Isaiah 19:23-24)

However, even if "Assyria" is never reborn....remember that 99% of Assyrians/Babylonians today are Arabic-speaking and Muslim. They are known as "Iraqis", of the Shiite and Sunni branches.

Iraqis are just Babylonians and Assyrians who converted from paganism to Christianity, then to Islam.

The only "Arabs", in the ethnic sense, are people from Arabia. The nations of the middle east speak Arabic, but none are "Arabs" ethnically except for those in (Saudi) Arabia.

The Arabic-speaking Muslims of modern-day Syria are the descendants of the old Arameans. The Arabic-speaking Muslims of Lebanon are Phoenicians. Arabic-speaking Muslims in Egypt are descended from the old Egyptians. None of these people are "Arabs."

Likewise, in Mexico, most of the people are natives (Aztecs, Mayans, etc.) even though they are Spanish-speaking and Catholic. Just because they speak Spanish and practice Roman Catholicism doesn't make them Spaniards, right?

So even if there's never a nation called "Assyria" again, still the "Assyrians" are today alive and well in ancient Mesopotamia.

Did that make sense? <!-- s:eh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eh.gif" alt=":eh:" title="Eh" /><!-- s:eh: -->

Could the "Anti-Christ" be an ethnic "Assyrian" (whatever that means?), Sure. Saddam was one "Assyrian' who sure came close, after gassing hundreds of Christian Assyrian villages in the north and making up plans to invade all the rest of the nations in the middle east, especially Israel.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Christina - 03-03-2008

Paul Younan Wrote:Personally, I believe in the prophetic rebirth of Assyria:

"In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptian shall serve with the Assyrians. In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:" (Isaiah 19:23-24)

Yes I heard that many Assyrians view that passage in this way. Since it mentions Egypt as well, I wonder how the Copts view it. Where I'm living at the moment, I don't have an opportunity to interact with CoE Christians (there's no CoE Parish where I live), will be moving to London, UK later this year, and maybe then I'll get an opportunity to attend a CoE Parish & maybe even learn at least some Aramaic. There is a CoE Parish in London, UK right?

Quote:However, even if "Assyria" is never reborn....remember that 99% of Assyrians/Babylonians today are Arabic-speaking and Muslim. They are known as "Iraqis", of the Shiite and Sunni branches.

Iraqis are just Babylonians and Assyrians who converted from paganism to Christianity, then to Islam.

The only "Arabs", in the ethnic sense, are people from Arabia. The nations of the middle east speak Arabic, but none are "Arabs" ethnically except for those in (Saudi) Arabia.

The Arabic-speaking Muslims of modern-day Syria are the descendants of the old Arameans. The Arabic-speaking Muslims of Lebanon are Phoenicians. Arabic-speaking Muslims in Egypt are descended from the old Egyptians. None of these people are "Arabs."

Likewise, in Mexico, most of the people are natives (Aztecs, Mayans, etc.) even though they are Spanish-speaking and Catholic. Just because they speak Spanish and practice Roman Catholicism doesn't make them Spaniards, right?

So even if there's never a nation called "Assyria" again, still the "Assyrians" are today alive and well in ancient Mesopotamia.

Did that make sense? <!-- s:eh: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/eh.gif" alt=":eh:" title="Eh" /><!-- s:eh: -->

Yes it does make sense, and the Arabs view it this way as well. I once dated an Iraqi Arab who was a convert to Christianity from Shia Islam, and he told me that the Iraqi Arabs do view themselves as the descendents of the Babylonians & Assyrians.

Quote:Could the "Anti-Christ" be an ethnic "Assyrian" (whatever that means?), Sure. Saddam was one "Assyrian' who sure came close, after gassing hundreds of Christian Assyrian villages in the north and making up plans to invade all the rest of the nations in the middle east, especially Israel.

Ethnic "Assyrian" most probably, after all that's the only clue Scripture gives for his ethnicity, otherwise he's called by his "royal titles" (King of Babylon, Prince of Tyre, Gog of Magog, Pharaoh of Egypt, etc.). However (IMO) it's pretty obvious that he's Muslim, he certainly behaves like one, I believe he's the Mahdi whom Muslims are waiting for.

Taking what you said about the modern Muslim Lebanese, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc. I think that Psalm 83 illustrates these Muslim nations & peoples comming against Israel:

83:1 Elohim, don???t keep silent. Don???t keep silent, and don???t be still, Elohim.
83:2 For, behold, Your enemies are stirred up. Those who hate You have lifted up their heads.
83:3 They conspire with cunning against Your people. They plot against Your cherished ones.
83:4 ???Come,??? they say, ???and let???s destroy them as a nation, that the name of Yisra'el may be remembered no more.??? 83:5 For they have conspired together with one mind. They form an alliance against You.
83:6 The tents of Edom [Jordan] and the Ishmaelites [Saudis]; Moab [Jordan], and the Hagrites [Egyptians];
83:7 Gebal [Lebanon], Ammon [Jordan], and Amalek [Jordan]; Philistia [Palestine] with the inhabitants of Tyre [Lebanese];
83:8 Assyria [Iraq] also is joined with them. They have helped the children of Lot [Jordanians]. Selah.


Re: CoE on eschatology - Christina - 03-03-2008

Paul Younan Wrote:All four of my grandparents were from modern-day Turkey as well.

For me it's my grandparents of my father's side (I'm actually half Greek). But they moved to Greece (Alexandropoli, which still has a substancial Turkish population), when they were kids and my dad was born there. I don't know exactly where in Turkey they're from, my relatives tell me from "Khili" (don't know how that's spelled in Turkish), tried looking for it on a map, but so far no luck, must be a small village, though they say it's near the western coast.

Quote:I like the bloodsucking quote: my grandfather used to tell me if I ever shook the hand of a Turk to count my fingers when I got it back. =)

'Course he watched both of his parents get their neck sliced off and thrown into a pit of Christian bodies because they wouldn't convert to Islam. And his little sister was kidnapped by them never to be seen again. Then they cut his neck (at 12 years old), but they missed the major arteries and he survived.

Can't blame him too much for those harsh feelings. <!-- sSad --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/sad.gif" alt="Sad" title="Sad" /><!-- sSad -->

Certainly not! And let's not forget the Armenian & Assyrian genocides by the Ottomans, that wasn't that long ago. I'd like to know more about the "dhimnitude" that Eastern Christianity has been subject to. Any books you can recommend?


Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 03-03-2008

Christina Wrote:Certainly not! And let's not forget the Armenian & Assyrian genocides by the Ottomans, that wasn't that long ago. I'd like to know more about the "dhimnitude" that Eastern Christianity has been subject to. Any books you can recommend?

Oh yes, on the holocaust:

http://www.aina.org/books/stnd.htm
http://www.aina.org/books/lwp.pdf
http://www.aina.org/books/tboa/tboa.htm
http://www.aina.org/books/fla/fla.htm

A review by bat-Yeor of an excellent book by Mordechai Nisan:

http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_nisan_minorities_review.pdf

Here is the book on Amazon: (highly recommended)

http://www.amazon.com/Minorities-Middle-East-Struggle-Self-Expression/dp/0786413751/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1204566082&sr=8-1

Bat Yeor Wrote:By Bat Yeor

To the average observer, the Middle East appears to be a homogeneous,
gigantic Arab-Muslim continent. Under this heavy blanket of uniformity,
however, the remnants of colonized, extinguished nations, crushed and
dispossessed by imperialism, survive in pain and anguish. These peoples -
Kurds, Alawites, Copts, Jews, and others - have withstood jihad, genocides,
persecutions, and continual sociopolitical repression. Yet their hearts
still beat, inspired by the hope of freedom and survival.
It is their history that Mordechai Nisan tells, combining clear scholarship
with a perspicacious sensibility. Who are these peoples? In his subtle
analysis, Nisan demonstrates that they represent diverse ethnic groups, with
unique historical experiences. The author constructs a fascinating mosaic of
peoples, beliefs, and intertwined histories. This work expands upon a 1991
study, with much new material.
Nisan begins by specifying the characteristics these people share in their
diversity. What inner forces of cohesion shaped their resistance to the Arab
and Islamic onslaught on their lands and civilizations from East Persia to
North Africa? The factors promoting survival are neither fixed nor stable.
Throughout the political dynamism of historical events, each of these
peoples has preserved a collective self-consciousness that spans millennia.
"The crux of a minority struggle," writes Nisan, "often revolved around the
ability to define identity from within as a matter of group
self-articulation, and not be the victims of a superimposed identity from
without." Crushed by cultural and religious Arab-Islamic imperialism, the
group's identity and cohesion is a testimony to its indigenous uniqueness.
But can this human and cultural diversity of the Middle East survive after
millennia of hardship, unforeseen challenges, and resistance?
One discovers, for instance, beneath the uniformity of Arabism a
substructure of living, resistant, minority peoples cultivating their
pre-Arab and pre-Islamic native languages, cultures, and religions. Nisan
organizes the groups into four main categories: (1) the Islamized peoples
who resisted Arab/Muslim colonialism and kept their own culture and
languages, like the Kurds (Iraq, Syria, Iran, Turkey), the Berbers (Algeria,
Tunisia, Morocco), and the Baluch (Pakistan); (2) the heterodox Muslim
minorities who were Arabized but resisted Islamization by keeping their
ancestral beliefs and customs under a Muslim veneer, like the Druzes
(Levant) and the Alawites (Syria); (3) the Christian minorities: Armenians,
Assyrians, Copts, Maronites, and Sudanese; and (4) the Jews, the only
minority who succeeded in liberating a part of their historical land from
Arab-Islamic imperialism.
Nisan describes the rich history of each group and the inevitable tensions
that accompany cultural, linguistic, and religious resistance to
Islamization. Their histories include the difficulties entailed in
maintaining the history and culture of the group, the processes of survival
they adopted, the modalities of adaptation, and the compromises employed to
save a modicum of freedom without disappearing. This analytical survey
carries us through several levels of understanding, from the policy of
conquest and domination that included spoliation, slavery, deportation, and
genocide to the various mechanisms of survival adopted by each crushed,
humiliated, oppressed, or tolerated community. Not every group developed the
same self-consciousness of its history, culture, and ethnic characteristics,
but all resisted.
The political and social tensions highlighted by Nisan are most urgent and
topical for the West. In our age of multiculturalism, which has seen the
recent development in the West of large immigrant communities, what does
integration mean? Can some groups integrate more easily than others? Can
integration succeed when fundamental values clash? Nisan's sober and
scholarly analysis of the conflict between territorial ethnicity and
religious imperialism is of great relevance to the West.
In history, chance is a fugitive fairy that rarely passes twice. The light
of freedom sparkled for the oppressed Christian minorities in the Middle
East after World War I. It was quickly extinguished by France and Britain in
their eagerness to appease Muslim hostility in their Arab colonial
dominions. Sacrificed were the legitimate aspirations of the Armenians,
Kurds, Assyrians, and Copts.
Their ancestral homelands were arbitrarily lumped into enormous Arab-Islamic
entities, while concessions to Islamic demands violated their rights. Some,
like the Armenians, Assyrians, and Jacobites, were simply abandoned to
bloody reprisals, while the promises they had been given were broken. Only
the Maronites and the Jews were given a chance; even for these, it was a
delusion and a snare. British pro-Arab policy in the 1930s in Palestine, the

gestation of the Shoah in Europe, and the closure of all routes of escape
for the Jews at the Evian Conference in 1938 seemed to have delivered the
last blow to the Zionist dream of national liberation. The Maronites had to
wait a generation to experience the bitterness of world abandonment and the
betrayal of their friends. Hence, among all the dhimmi peoples, only Israel
survived the lethal Euro-Arab alliance against the indigenous Middle Eastern
minorities.
This history of blood, hope, and massacres that Nisan recalls in a masterly
way is not over. The martyrdom perpetrated on the Lebanese Christians by the
Palestinians and their Muslim allies, generalized jihad, the slavery and
butchery inflicted on the rebellious non-Muslim Sudanese populations, the
oppression of the Copts and the Assyrians, the massacres of the Kurds, the
negation of the Berber's cultural rights, the jihad Intifada against Israel
- all are ignored or explained away by European governments and the media.
Do these ancient and courageous peoples still have a chance to deliver
themselves from the shackle of dhimmitude, and the manipulations of Eurabia
<http://www.dhimmitude.org/d_today_jihad.php>? Now that a new Middle East is
being projected, in spite of old Europe's lethal alliance with the most
repressive regimes, maybe the good-luck fairy will pass a second time, to
console and redress the cynical injustice inflicted on vulnerable and
martyred peoples. Nisan's book is invaluable for a fuller understanding of
Middle East history, past and present.
In the mid 19th century, the French Turcophile writer Abdolonyme Ubicini
(translation from The Decline of Eastern Christianity
</redirect/amazon.asp?j=0838636780>) described the subjected dhimmis of the
Ottoman Empire - Christians and Jews - awaiting liberation despite centuries
of oppression:
The history of enslaved peoples is the same everywhere, or rather,
they have no history. The years, the centuries pass without bringing any
change to their situation. Generations come and go in silence. One might
think they are afraid to awaken their masters, asleep alongside them.
However, if you examine them closely you discover that this immobility is
only superficial. A silent and constant agitation grips them. Life has
entirely withdrawn into the heart. They resemble those rivers which have
disappeared underground: if you put your ear to the earth, you can hear the
muffled sound of their waters; then they emerge intact a few leagues away.
Such is the state of the Christian populations of Turkey under Ottoman rule.
Will his observations prove relevant today for the Christian and other
ethnic minorities of the Arab-Muslim dominions?
- Bat Yeor <http://www.dhimmitude.org> is the author of three books on jihad
and dhimmitude. Her latest study Islam and Dhimmitude: Where Civilizations
Collide



Re: CoE on eschatology - Paul Younan - 03-03-2008

Rafa Wrote:Either way, the region was truly a Jewel before Islam started, the West was a joke compared to the civilizations contained in Mesopotamia.

Akhi Rafa, check out this interview:

http://frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=4D818187-782D-4AA9-BEFA-64C5A00D9677

Peter Betbasoo Wrote:The New Testament is written in parables. Seldom is the point of the story expressed directly. The reader is asked to read a parable and figure out what it means. Reading the New Testament requires analysis, it engages the critical thought processes of interpretation and deduction.

The effort at understanding the Mystery of the Trinity and of unraveling the meaning of parables exercises the mind and engages the Christian not only on a spiritual level, but an intellectual level as well. To wit, it teaches a Christian to think.

In contrast, the Koran is written in a prescriptive style. There are no parables. The Muslim is summarily told what to do, most of the time without explanation. The Muslim needs to read just enough to get the prescription. It's like the directions on your drug prescription: take two pills every eight hours. Period. No further explanation.

Thus on a practical level, the act of exercising these religions produces two different thought processes. Christianity asks the believer to think and analyze, to interpret and deduce. Islam asks the believer to obey blindly and without question. Indeed, the Koran says "...follow not that of which you have not the knowledge" (Children of Israel, 17.36)
.