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Daily prayer in CoE - Printable Version

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Daily prayer in CoE - ilan - 02-15-2005

shlama

I read in a booklet of the syriac orthodox church that
they do a sequence of bowing from waist / kneeling / prostration
every time they start to pray, reciting a phrase at each stage.

What struck me was the great ressemblance with the muslim "salat"
when they recite "al fatiha". So i was wondering if the CoE do the
same thing , and if this practice was attested from pre-islamic time.

I would be interested in some details in the way to do those
movements : How are your hands when you prostrate, are your
upper legs supposed to be vertical when you're kneeled or do you
sit on your legs like the muslims do , that kind of things.


Thank you.


- Paul Younan - 02-18-2005

Shlama Ilan,

The Arabic/Muslim practice of "Salat" is from the Aramaic Christian "Sloothah" (prayer, prostration.) It is a full prostration on all fours with your forehead on the ground. It very much resembles what the Muslims do today, which is taken from Aramaic Christianity and Temple Judaism before it.


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Dawid - 12-17-2007

Like Paul said, this was originally a Judaic practice. The Karaites still pray similarly to this. I'm not aware of them getting on all fours, but they still pray kneeling, and bow low to the ground, forehead almost touching the ground. On Yom Qippur, even the Rabbinic sects still practice prostration.
It became prohibited in mainstream Judaism when the Christians decided upon it as their official form of prayer. Go figure. Abandon an ancient practice just because we can't be like the Christians. <!-- sRolleyes --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rolleyes.gif" alt="Rolleyes" title="Roll Eyes" /><!-- sRolleyes --> I still pray kneeling, and touch my head Tephillin to the ground at certain points.

Shalom,
David


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Paul Younan - 12-17-2007

Dawid Wrote:Like Paul said, this was originally a Judaic practice.

And before Judaism is was originally a Mesopotamian practice. The words for "worship" in Sumerian and Akkadian are "Ki.Za.Za" and "Shukenu", respectively. Both mean "to make a prostration."

Don't forget your origins.

Dawid Wrote:It became prohibited in mainstream Judaism when the Christians decided upon it as their official form of prayer. Go figure. Abandon an ancient practice just because we can't be like the Christians. <!-- sRolleyes --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rolleyes.gif" alt="Rolleyes" title="Roll Eyes" /><!-- sRolleyes -->

Christians were Israelites/Jews, especially in Mesopotamia/Adiabene. Why would they invent a new form of prayer when they accepted their Messiah?

That sounds to me very much like when the Jews decided to switch over to a totally new Aramaic script, just because the Samaritans were using the old one.


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Dawid - 12-17-2007

Paul Younan Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:Like Paul said, this was originally a Judaic practice.

And before Judaism is was originally a Mesopotamian practice. The words for "worship" in Sumerian and Akkadian are "Ki.Za.Za" and "Shukenu", respectively. Both mean "to make a prostration."

Don't forget your origins.[/qutoe] True. Aramian/Mesopotamian in the sense that Avram was a Mesopotamian. But I don't think this would be any kind of late Meso-Aramean influence, since it is recorded that even Solomon practiced it at the dedication of the Temple.

Paul Younan Wrote:
Dawid Wrote:It became prohibited in mainstream Judaism when the Christians decided upon it as their official form of prayer. Go figure. Abandon an ancient practice just because we can't be like the Christians. <!-- sRolleyes --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/rolleyes.gif" alt="Rolleyes" title="Roll Eyes" /><!-- sRolleyes -->

Christians were Israelites/Jews, especially in Mesopotamia/Adiabene. Why would they invent a new form of prayer when they accepted their Messiah?

That sounds to me very much like when the Jews decided to switch over to a totally new Aramaic script, just because the Samaritans were using the old one.
Oh, I agree 100%. Like I said, I still practice as the Karaites do. Not quite like the COE form, getting down on all fours, but that would be difficult to do while holding a Siddur, anyway.
However, I've read the Talmudic passages dealing with the change of script. I don't see anything causitive. They don't say that they changed simply because the Samaritans were using the old script, they simply mention that they were.


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Paul Younan - 12-17-2007

You know the meaning of the word "Karaites" and it's origin?

Interesting that Islam was brought up in this thread.....the "Quran" and the "Karaites" come from the same verbal root, "QRA", "to read".


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Dawid - 12-17-2007

Paul Younan Wrote:You know the meaning of the word "Karaites" and it's origin?

Interesting that Islam was brought up in this thread.....the "Quran" and the "Karaites" come from the same verbal root, "QRA", "to read".
Yes. I once heard it rendered "scripturalists." Not the most literal, but it sums up the essence of the word. From Q'ra as in "Wayyiqra elohim yehiy or". In Hebrew it doesn't necessarily mean "to read" it can mean "to cry out" "to shout" or simply "to say."


Re: Daily prayer in CoE - Karl - 12-17-2007

Dawid Wrote:From Q'ra as in "Wayyiqra elohim yehiy or". In Hebrew it doesn't necessarily mean "to read" it can mean "to cry out" "to shout" or simply "to say."

As it does in Aramaic (I would also add "to call" among the translations).