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Romans 1:17 query - Printable Version

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- Paul Younan - 02-02-2005

Shlama Akhi Dave,

Dave Wrote:But I must ask again, does the peshitta say "And She The Spirit gives testimony,..."?

You know in English, the word "that"? It doesn't matter if the noun you are pointing to is masculine or feminine, right? You can use "that" for either a masculine or feminine word, right?

For instance, you can say in English:

(1) That man, or
(2) That woman

Both of the above are proper English grammar, right?

Not so in Aramaic. In Aramaic, articles like "that" (and many other components of grammar, i.e. verbs and adjectives) must agree in gender (and number) with their noun counterparts.

In Aramaic, if the noun is Feminine, you must say:

(1) Hay Rukha, (that (f) Spirit (f))....NOT
(2) Haw Rukha, (that (m) Spirit (f))

Likewise, in Aramaic if the noun is Masculine you must say:

(1) Haw Shleekha, (that (m) Apostle(m))....NOT
(2) Hay Shleekha, (that (f) Apostle(m))

The Peshitta in Romans 8:16 is translated "And that Spirit gives testimony."

NOTE: just because an Aramaic word is grammatically feminine, does not mean that the thing described by it is feminine. Peter's name, for instance, "Keepa" - it's grammatically feminine....and he of course was a man.

Now, for fun - go through your beloved "Old Scratch" and see how many grammatical errors of this magnitude (and worse) are there. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


- Dave - 02-02-2005

Don't be picking on Old Scratch, it has been through many wars. Just cause it calls people women sometimes is no case to throw it away! <!-- sTongue --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/poketoungeb.gif" alt="Tongue" title="Poke Tounge" /><!-- sTongue -->


Quote:Not so in Aramaic. In Aramaic, articles like "that" (and many other components of grammar, i.e. verbs and adjectives) must agree in gender (and number) with their noun counterparts.

Ok, the gender can be shown back in Genesis of The Spirit of God as Feminine, and I understand how this relates into syriac and aramaic (and I was learning a bit about this as I learn Hebrew), but you used english without translating the gender to me?!

If the gender is to be shown, it correspondes to the structure around it, this is what you appear to be saying.

So,........Paul,..........what is the correct translation with the gender in this particular passage of Romans??


- Dave - 02-03-2005

Something appears to be wrong here Paul. You translated Acts 1:4 as this:

",..He commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but they should wait for the promise of The Father, He whom ye have heard about from me."

Here you translated the gender (of which it is male, and the OT states that The Holy Spirit is feminine) instead of using the english word "that" in the neutral sense. The word He is referring to the gift from The Father, which is The Holy Spirit.

According to what I was able to ascertain about Hebrew and aramaic, these 2 languages do not have a neutral gender, only english seems to have the neutral word such as "it" but this is not in the vocabulary of Hebrew and aramaic.

So Paul, what is the syriac gender in this particular passage of Romans 8:16 in the peshitta?


- Paul Younan - 02-03-2005

Dave Wrote:Something appears to be wrong here Paul. You translated Acts 1:4 as this:

",..He commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but they should wait for the promise of The Father, He whom ye have heard about from me."

Here you translated the gender (of which it is male, and the OT states that The Holy Spirit is feminine) instead of using the english word "that" in the neutral sense. The word He is referring to the gift from The Father, which is The Holy Spirit.

According to what I was able to ascertain about Hebrew and aramaic, these 2 languages do not have a neutral gender, only english seems to have the neutral word such as "it" but this is not in the vocabulary of Hebrew and aramaic.

So Paul, what is the syriac gender in this particular passage of Romans 8:16 in the peshitta?

Hi Akhi Dave,

I already translated Romans 8:16 above and I already told you the gender above (read my post again.)

In Acts 1:4, the "Haw" is translated "He" because it is not followed by a noun, but by a verb.

Pick up Thackston's Grammar from Amazon.com - it's really helpful. In Aramaic, articles like "that" are used as Pronominal Enclitics ("He", "They", etc.) when they stand alone without a noun counterpart.


- Paul Younan - 02-03-2005

Dave Wrote:According to what I was able to ascertain about Hebrew and aramaic, these 2 languages do not have a neutral gender, only english seems to have the neutral word such as "it" but this is not in the vocabulary of Hebrew and aramaic.

Shlama Akhi Dave,

Didn't you read the part of my post where I said:

Paul Younan Wrote:In Aramaic, articles like "that" (and many other components of grammar, i.e. verbs and adjectives) must agree in gender (and number) with their noun counterparts.

In Acts 1:4, there is no noun counterpart. The word "haw" is not followed by the word "spirit" - had it been, it would be an error in grammar to use the masculine "haw." That's why it's translated "He."

In Romans 8:16, there is a noun counterpart. The word "hay" is pointing directly to, and followed by, the word "spirit." That's why it's translated "that."

Can Romans 8:16 be translated "She Spirit?" Literally it can, sure - but would that make any sense to you in English? Doesn't "That Spirit" work much better for you?


- Dave - 02-03-2005

Quote:In Acts 1:4, there is no noun counterpart. The word "haw" is not followed by the word "spirit" - had it been, it would be an error in grammar to use the masculine "haw." That's why it's translated "He."

The problem is the object described in the text, The Holy Spirit. The text directly describes The Spirit as a He when we have a known gender from the OT as She. On top of that, the book of Romans describes The Spirit as a She. So we have 2 different books attributing 2 different genders, which is grammatically and doctrinally wrong, there is no escaping that. By trying to hide this fact in the english neutral gender is deceptive.

Quote:In Romans 8:16, there is a noun counterpart. The word "hay" is pointing directly to, and followed by, the word "spirit." That's why it's translated "that."

On the one hand you tell me that the text describes The Spirit as female, with the proper noun counterpart, but you want to attribute a neutral gender in english instead of properly translating it into the correct gender???

Why attribute a neutral when there is none in Hebrew and Aramaic?

Quote:Can Romans 8:16 be translated "She Spirit?" Literally it can, sure - but would that make any sense to you in English? Doesn't "That Spirit" work much better for you?

Not when we are talking text clarity and doctrinal issues, and relationship to the OT. Such a distinction within the Godhead clears up false doctrines, such as the oneness doctrine, and it's advocates who refuse to accept the distinction.


- Paul Younan - 02-04-2005

Dave,

Honestly you have no clue what you are talking about. This discussion is going nowhere quickly. Before you have the credentials to suggest how things should be translated, never mind the accusations you level, you need to educate yourself more (or, at least a little) on Aramaic, as right now you are likened to a pre-school child yelping at a Professor of English at Cambridge.

Whether you like it or not, except for Old Scratch, Aramaic texts follow Aramaic grammar. Nobody really cares about your opinions on how things should read, much less on doctrinal issues. Pick up Thackston's grammar and educate yourself a little bit so we can have a more engaging and intelligent discussion.

The reason why you don't translate Romans 8:16 as "She Spirit" instead of "That Spirit" is because the Aramaic word isn't being used there as "She". Not to mention the fact that it makes no sense in English whatsoever.

The Aramaic is there in the Interlinear for all to see - anyone who knows it knows the article in Romans 8:16 is feminine, as is the word for spirit to which it points.

How I translate the English is based on many factors, primarily how clear the English turns out. It's a balancing act. There's very rarely a case where some things are not lost - including things like gender where they are either unnecessary in English, or as in this case they are anathema in proper English grammar.

Move on, grab a book and read.


- Dave - 02-04-2005

Quote:Dave,

Honestly you have no clue what you are talking about. This discussion is going nowhere quickly. Before you have the credentials to suggest how things should be translated, never mind the accusations you level, you need to educate yourself more (or, at least a little) on Aramaic, as right now you are likened to a pre-school child yelping at a Professor of English at Cambridge.


Heh,

Paul I'm becoming quite desensitized to the "let's through theory up in his face" situation, simply because I am learning now. And if you were a professor that would be a different situation altogether, wouldn't it?

I could throw mechanical engineering all over you that would make your freakin head swim buddy, but I don't do that to you or anyone else because it is rude.

Besides, I'm not letting you off the hook that easy Pal.


Quote:The reason why you don't translate Romans 8:16 as "She Spirit" instead of "That Spirit" is because the Aramaic word isn't being used there as "She". Not to mention the fact that it makes no sense in English whatsoever.

This area is not the problem Paul, but let's explore it, shall we?

What we have here is a simplistic situation, one book disagrees with another. The whole jist of this is not completely on Romans 8:16, that is easy to fix. In fact, shoot, let's use your worded translation Paul. Ready? Here we go:

And That Spirit, She gives testimony,...

Or this:

And She, That Spirit, gives testimony,..

Or even like they do in Hebrew interlinears:

And That Spirit(She) gives testimony,..


It's quite easy in English to render the gender as it should be, when someone actually does. This is not the problem though.

The problem is back in Acts 1:4;

"..He commanded them that from Jerusalem they should not depart but (that) they should wait for the promise of The Father, He whom ye have heard about from me."

This is the problem. It changes the gender of The Holy Spirit to Masculine when it shouldn't. This is your translation Paul, and I know it is exact, thus it points to a problem in the text, not you.


- Paul Younan - 02-04-2005

Dave,

I don't know how I'm gonna stick this in your thick head, but let me try again:

(1) Acts 1:4 says "He" because the Holy Spirit is a He.

(2) Romans 8:16 says "She", not because the Holy Spirit is a She, but because to keep with grammatical form Aramaic articles must agree in gender with their noun counterparts. Aramaic cannot have the "He" in Romans 8:16, because the word for "spirit" is feminine. It would not work grammatically.

Dave - write this down on a piece of paper:

The Holy Spirit is a HE. The Aramaic word for "spirit" is grammatically feminine.

grammatically feminine
grammatically feminine
grammatically feminine

not actually feminine
not actually feminine
not actually feminine

The WORD is feminine, the object which it descibes is MASCULINE.

Peter's name, Keepa is grammatically feminine. But Peter is not actually feminine.

Do you get it now?

Do you?

I hope so.

Pick up a grammar book. There's no problem with the text. There's only a problem with YOU.


- ograabe - 02-04-2005

February 4, 2005

In the U.S. it has become politically correct to use the word "gender" as a substitute for the more appropriate and specific word "sex" when referring to male and female persons. The word gender is much more broad than "sex" in that it can refer to any classification of nouns.

The classification of nouns as male, female and neuter as in German (where the word "the" can be "der", "die" or "das" depending on the gender) includes inanimate things that are classified as feminine or masculine. This does not necessarily have anything to do with sex or the underlying nature. In German spirit (der Spiritus) is masculine and map (die Landkarte) is feminine and book (das Buch) is neuter. But that does not mean that spirit has a masculine nature, that a map has a feminine nature, or that a book is a eunich.

Likewise, the fact the word spirit is feminine in Aramaic has no significance with repect the nature of the Holy Spirit (which will always be masculine in German and neuter in English).

Otto


- peshitta_enthusiast - 02-05-2005

Enstschuldigung bitte! Mensch was solden das? Dies ist quatsch neh? Ograabe, Mein Broder, I enjoy die le-mo-na-de (German feminine) without being feminine or homosexual. I also have seen many cats (die katze - feminine) who are actually male, and many dogs (der Hund - masculine) who is actually female. And I never refer to a female dog as "the he dog" or "he the dog". It is interesting to see the same sort of thing in the Bible, where you have feminine/masculine grammar that is independant of the "gender" of the subject.

Regards,

Chris


- Dave - 02-05-2005

Paul you may wanna back up there and regroup marine. Take a look:


Appendix 3
The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament

The Occurrences of Spirit

CREATION:

Genesis 1:2

FEMININE.

Spirit of God

And the earth was empty and barren, and darkness was upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttered upon the face of the water.

FLUTTERED: D part. f.s. /RHP/

Genesis 6:3

MASCULINE.

My Spirit

My Spirit will not plead with mankind forever...

PLEAD: G imperf. 3ms /DYN/

Job 26:13

FEMININE

With his Spirit the heavens cleared [n.f.]...

Job 33:4

FEMININE

The Spirit of God made [G 3fs /'SH/ + 1cs suff.] me...

Job 27:3

UNCERTAIN

Because yet my breath is in me, and the Spirit of God is in my nose.

/no verbs or pronouns associated with Spirit; breath is feminine/

Psalm 104:30

UNCERTAIN

You send your spirit: they are created...

/no verbs or pronouns associated with Spirit/

Isaiah 40:13

UNCERTAIN

Who understands the Spirit of Yahweh...

/no verbs or pronouns associated with Spirit/

MOSES TO SAMUEL:

Exodus 31:3

FEMININE

Spirit of God

And I will fill him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom (f.), with understanding (f.), knowledge (f.), and with every occupation(f.)

Exodus 35:31

FEMININE

Spirit of God

And he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom (f.), with understanding (f.), knowledge (f.), and with every occupation (f.)

Numbers 11:17

UNCERTAIN

the Spirit

And I will come down and I spoke with you there and I will withdraw the Spirit which is upon you and I will put upon them and they will lift with you in the burden of the people and you will not lift alone.

Numbers 11:25

UNCERTAIN

Then Yahweh came down in the cloud and spoke with him, and he took of the Spirit that was on him and put the Spirit on the seventy elders. When the Spirit rested [KeNoWH infinitive construct /no gender specified/] on them, they prophesied, but they did not do so again.

Numbers 11:26

FEMININE

Yet the Spirit also rested [G 3fs /NWH/] on them...

Numbers 24:2

FEMININE

Numbers 27:18

UNCERTAIN

And Yahweh said to Moses, "Take to yourself Joshua, son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit..."

/ no verbs or pronouns connected to Spirit/

Deuteronomy 34:9

UNCERTAIN

And Joshua, son of Nun, was filled with the Spirit of wisdom because Moses placed his hands on him...

/no verbs or pronouns connected to Spirit/

Judges 3:10

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh was [G 3fs imperf. /HYH/] upon him...

Judges 6:34

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh clothed [G 3fs perf /LBS/] Gideon...

Judges 11:29

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh was [G 3fs imperf /HYH/] upon Jephthah

Judges 13:25

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh stirred [G 3fs imperf /HWL/] ...

Judges 14:6

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh rushed [G 3fs imperf. /SLH/] upon him...

Judges 14:19

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh rushed [G 3fs imperf. /SLH/ upon him...

Judges 15:14

FEMININE

him...

Nehemiah 9:20

FEMININE

And you gave your good [f.] Spirit to instruct them...

Isaiah 63:10, 11

UNCERTAIN

does not help identify the gender of the word "Spirit"]

THE UNITED MONARCHY:

1 Samuel 10:6, 10

FEMININE

vs. 6. And the Spirit of Yahweh rushed [G 3fs perf.] upon you... vs. 10 ...and the Spirit of God rushed [G 3fs imperf] upon him...

1 Samuel 11:6

FEMININE

And the Spirit of God rushed [G 3fs imperf.] upon Saul...

1 Samuel 19:20, 23

FEMININE

vs. 20 And the Spirit of God was [G 3fs imperf /HYH/] upon the servants of Saul...

vs. 23 And the Spirit of God was [G 3fs imperf] also upon him...

1 Samuel 16:14

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh turned aside [G 3fs perf /SWR/] from Saul and an injurious [adj. f.] Spirit from Yahweh fell upon [D 3fs + suff.] him

1 Samuel 16:13

FEMININE

David...

Psalm 51:10 [Heb = 51:12]6

UNCERTAIN

[no verb or pronoun to help with determining the gender of Spirit; correctness = n.m.; does not help with determining the gender of Spirit]

Psalm 51:11 [Heb = 51:13]

UNCERTAIN

help determine the gender of Spirit]

Psalm 51:12 [Heb = 51:14]

FEMININE

Psalm 139:7

UNCERTAIN

Where shall I go from your Spirit...

/no verb or pronoun to connect with Spirit/

Psalm 143:10

FEMININE

Teach me to do your will, because you are my God

Your good [adj. f.] Spirit will lead [ H 3fs imperf /NHH/ + suff.] me on level ground

1 Chron. 28:12

UNCERTAIN

And the pattern of all that he had by the Spirit...

/no verb or pronoun connected with Spirit/

2 Samuel 23:2

MASCULINE

The Spirit of Yahweh spoke [D 3ms perf /DBR/] with me and His word was upon my tongue.

/may have been forced into masculine by verses one and three, which has God of Jacob, God of Israel, Rock of Israel; the entire context stresses the power and strength of God./

1 Chron. 12:18

FEMININE

And the Spirit clothed [G 3fs perf /LBS/] Amasai, chief of the thirty

Prov. 1:23

UNCERTAIN

Behold, I will make my Spirit known to you...

/no verbs or pronouns to connect to Spirit. Is in the context of Wisdom [f.] giving a speech./

THE DIVIDED MONARCHY

2 Chron. 15:1

FEMININE

The Spirit of Yahweh was [G 3fs perf /HYH/] him...

2 Chron. 20:14

FEMININE

The Spirit of Yahweh was [G 3fs perf /HYH/] upon him...

2 Chron. 24:20

FEMININE

And the Spirit of God clothed [G 3fs perf /LBS/] Zechariah...

1 Kings 18:12

MASCULINE

I don't know where the Spirit of Yahweh will carry [G3ms imperf /NS'/ + 2ms suff.] you...

2 Kings 2:9

UNCERTAIN

[no verb or pronoun connected to Spirit]

2 Kings 2:15

FEMININE

And they said, "The Spirit of Elijah rests [G3fs perf. /NWH/] upon Elisha...

2 Kings 2:16

MASCULINE

suff.] him...

Joel 2:28, 29 [Heb. = 3:1-2]

UNCERTAIN

[No verbs or pronouns to connect Spirit with]

Hosea 9:7

UNCERTAIN

[no verbs or pronouns to connect Spirit with]

Micah 2:7

MASCULINE

Will it be said, House of Jacob, "The Spirit of Yahweh is worn out...[H3ms perf. /QSR/]

Micah 2:11

UNCERTAIN

[no verbs or pronouns to connect Spirit with]

Micah 3:8

UNCERTAIN


[no verbs or pronouns to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 4:4

UNCERTAIN

[no verbs or pronouns to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 11:2

FEMININE

The Spirit of Yahweh rested [G3fs perf. /NWH/] upon him, a Spirit of wisdom and discernment, a spirit of counsel and strength, a Spirit of knowledge and the fear of Yahweh

Isaiah 28:6

UNCERTAIN

And for a Spirit of justice...

[No noun or verb to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 42:1

UNCERTAIN

[No noun or verb to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 61:1

UNCERTAIN

The Spirit of Master Yahweh is upon me...

[No noun or verb to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 30:1

UNCERTAIN

[no noun or verb to connect Spirit with]

Isaiah 32:15

MASCULINE

Until the Spirit is poured out [H3ms imperf. /'RH/] from on high...

Isaiah 44:3

UNCERTAIN

[no verb or pronoun to tie Spirit to]

Isaiah 59:21

UNCERTAIN

[no verb or pronoun connected to Spirit]

Isaiah 34:16

MASCULINE


Isaiah 40:7

FEMININE


Isaiah 40:13

MASCULINE

Who has understood the Spirit of Yahweh, or instructed Him as His counselor?

[masculine pronouns refer back to "Spirit of Yahweh"]

Isaiah 59:19

FEMININE

Because he will come like a pent-up flood, which the Spirit of Yahweh drives [G3fs perf. /NSS/] away.

Nehemiah 9:30

UNCERTAIN

You admonished them with your Spirit by the hand of your prophets... [no verbs or nouns connected to Spirit]

Zechariah 7:12

UNCERTAIN

They hardened their hearts from hearing the Law and the words which Yahweh of Armies sent with his Spirit by the hand of the first prophets...

[no verbs or nouns connected to Spirit]

EXILIC AND POSTEXILIC PERIOD

Ezekiel 2:2

FEMININE

And the Spirit came [G3fs imperf /BW'/] in me...

Ezekiel 3:12

FEMININE

And the Spirit lifted [G3fs imperf + 1cs suff /NS'/] me...

Ezekiel 3:14

FEMININE

And the Spirit lifted [G3fs perf + 1cs suff /NS'/] me and took [G3fs imperf + 1cs suff /LQH/] me

Ezekiel 3:24

FEMININE

And the Spirit came [G3fs imperf /BW'/] and stood [H3fs imperf /'MD/ + 1cs suff] me on my feet...

Ezekiel 8:3

FEMININE

He stretched out what looked like a hand and he took me by the hair of my head and the Spirit lifted [G3fs imperf /NS'/ ] me between earth and heaven and she brought [H3fs imperf /BW'/] me toward Jerusalem...

Ezekiel 11:1

FEMININE

The Spirit lifted [G3fs imperf. /NS'/] me and brought [H3fs imperf. /BW'/] me to the gate of the House of Yahweh...

Ezekiel 11:5

FEMININE

And the Spirit of Yahweh fell [G3fs imperf. /NPL/] upon me and He said... /note the distinction made between the Spirit of Yahweh [f.] and Yahweh speaking [m.]/

Ezekiel 11:24

FEMININE

The spirit lifted [G3fs perf. /NS'/ + 1cs suff.] me and brought [H3fs imperf. /BW'/ + 1cs suff.] me toward Babylonia...

Ezekiel 37:1

UNCERTAIN

And the hand of Yahweh was [G3fs perf /HYH/] upon me and He brought [G3ms perf /YS'/ + 1cs suff.] me by the Spirit of Yahweh...

/It is unclear what the gender of Spirit may be, since there is no verb or pronoun associated with it; however, it is interesting to notice the construction of the sentence. Hand is feminine, and so the verb immediately following it is also feminine; however, the next verb is masculine, referring apparently back to whom the hand belongs, i.e. God. The hand does not act apart from God. It has a subservient role. Those places, perhaps, where Spirit APPEARS masculine, may be functioning in the same relationship as this hand./

Ezekiel 43:5

FEMININE

And the Spirit lifted [G3fs imperf /NS'/ + 1cs suff.] me and brought [H3fs imperf /BW'/ + 1cs suff] me ...

Ezekiel 1:12

FEMININE

the Spirit went [G fem. part. /HLK/]

Ezekiel 1:20, 21

FEMININE

the Spirit went [same as above]

Ezekiel 10:17

UNCERTAIN

/no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with/

Ezekiel 36:26, 27

vs. 26

FEMININE

I will give to you [m.pl.] a new [m.] heart and a new [f.] Spirit...

vs. 27

UNCERTAIN

I will give my Spirit in you [m.pl.]...

[no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with]

Ezekiel 37:14

UNCERTAIN

I will give my Spirit in you [m.pl.]...

[no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with]

Ezekiel 39:29

UNCERTAIN

"I will no longer hide my face from them which I poured my Spirit upon the house of Israel," says Master Yahweh.

[no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with]

Haggai 2:5

FEMININE

The word which I covenanted with you in your going out from Egypt, and my Spirit is standing [G act. Part. Fem. /'MD/] in your midst...

Zechariah 4:6

UNCERTAIN

[no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with]

Zechariah 12:10

UNCERTAIN

I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitant of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication....

[no verb or pronoun to connect Spirit with]

The Holy Spirit seems to appear as a masculine in the following locations: Genesis 6:3

My Spirit will not plead with [G3ms imperf DYN] mankind forever...

2 Sam. 23:2

The Spirit of Yahweh spoke [D3ms perf /DBR/] with me and His word was upon my tongue.

/may have been forced into masculine by verses one and three, which has God of Jacob, God of Israel, Rock of Israel; the entire context stresses the power and strength of God./

1 Kings 18:12

I don't know where the Spirit of Yahweh will carry [G3ms imperf. /NS'/ + 2ms suff.] you...

2 Kings 2:16

suff.] him...

Micah 2:7

Will it be said, House of Jacob, "The Spirit of Yahweh is worn out [H3ms perf. /QSR/]...

Isaiah 32:15

Until the Spirit is poured out [H3ms imperf. /'RH/] from on high...

Isaiah 34:16


Isaiah 40:13

Who has understood the Spirit of Yahweh, or instructed Him as His counselor? [masculine pronouns may refer back to 'Spirit of Yahweh', or may refer back to Yahweh]

After a study of the use of ruah in the rest of the Old Testament, there seems to be no pattern to its use as a masculine: it is apparently a free variable. This seems clear even from just its divine use, where in the same books of the Bible where an occasional masculine use of ruah surfaces, we find it is overwhelmingly used as a feminine. It is reasonable to conclude based on this general feminine usage that the Spirit of God was felt to be feminine by the writers of Scripture. The New Testament usage of the neuter for the Spirit does not preclude this possibility.

Preliminary indications are that the percentage of times the Spirit of God is masculine is about the same percentage as it is for the occurrence of the word ruah throughout the OT.

Actual breakdown:

9 out of 89 occurrences of the Spirit of God are masculine.

44 out of 373 occurrences of spirit (of whatever sort) are masculine.

9/89 = 10.1 % masculine

44/373 = 11.8 % masculine

Spirit, when used as a masculine, seems to have the sense of either "wind" or "emotion, attitude". If it refers to the breath, or life force, the spirit, then it is feminine. The feminine can perhaps sometimes mean "wind" or "emotion, attitude", but the masculine, I would propose, can never mean "spirit" or "breath".



I have left nothing out here to tip the scales in my direction here, I have kept this completely honest. Here is the site:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.theology.edu/theology/appen03.htm">http://www.theology.edu/theology/appen03.htm</a><!-- m -->

Their conclusion is based on scripture alone. Let me reiterate what that conclusion was:

It is reasonable to conclude based on this general feminine usage that the Spirit of God was felt to be feminine by the writers of Scripture.

There is no problem with me, but there is a problem with this text and the greek. I'm not splitting hairs here, I'm being observant.


- Dave - 02-05-2005

Let's look at those numbers again fellas:

Quote:9 out of 89 occurrences of the Spirit of God are masculine.

44 out of 373 occurrences of spirit (of whatever sort) are masculine.

9/89 = 10.1 % masculine

44/373 = 11.8 % masculine


Interesting! A 10.1% and 11.8% actual occurance that The Holy Spirit was used in the masculine sense? That is ultra low! Also, when it was used in the masculine sense, it wasn't always directed at the persona of The Spirit??!! Amazing!


With these results in mind, let's look at Acts 1:4 again:

Quote:He whom ye have heard about from me."

This text points towards the next sentence:

Quote:For John baptised with water, but ye shall be baptized with The Holy Spirit not many days afterwards.

Now let's look at the results from the OT study:

Quote:"Spirit, when used as a masculine, seems to have the sense of either "wind" or "emotion, attitude". If it refers to the breath, or life force, the spirit, then it is feminine. The feminine can perhaps sometimes mean "wind" or "emotion, attitude", but the masculine, I would propose, can never mean "spirit" or "breath".

With this in mind, let's use the results as a criteria here:

Who does Jesus direct the action at here in Acts 1:4? Obviously, the person of The Holy Spirit, or The Spirit, hence the wording should have been feminine.


Face the facts fellas, the Old Testament speaks, and the numbers do not lie. This text you claim originality on is not original, let me say that again, it is not original. The hand of revision/corruption is evident here in this area.


- Paul Younan - 02-05-2005

Dave,

Acts 1:4 does NOT have the word "spirit" in it. If it had, like ALL those OT quotes you gave, the "He-that" would have been a "She-that." (just like in Romans 8:16)

The Spirit of God is NOT feminine. The word, Spirit, is GRAMMATICALLY FEMININE.

Why won't you just get it through your head? MAN.


- Dave - 02-05-2005

Quote:The Spirit of God is NOT feminine. The word, Spirit, is GRAMMATICALLY FEMININE.

Grammatically and figuratively!

The understanding is there by context, and I am made to figure it out.

In Acts 1:4, we have a literal gender being applied indirectly, it applies this direct masculine gender to The Holy Spirit by the sentence ahead of it, so no, it would not have the corresponding verbs around it. How quaint.

Is that method used in the OT? No, according to the results shown above. Again, the numbers and results speak for themselves, and I won't budge or break from it.

Hence, we stop here Paul.