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+--- Thread: Help with translation of 1 cor 15:29 (/showthread.php?tid=1172)
Help with translation of 1 cor 15:29 - Jing - 01-13-2005
Dear All:
Shalm.
I am new here and I am new to believe that all Bible was written in Hebrew and Aramaic.
If anyone has the burden to help me translate 1cor 15:29 from Peshitta aramaic into English, I would be very grateful. I believe all translations of the same verse from Greek carry an error there.
The following is something that I just worked for your convenience:
Fym Plx Nydm9 0nm Nymyq f Fym J0 Fym Plx Nydm9d Jwnh Jwdb9n 0nm f0w 15:29
f0w: but; but rather;
0nm: what; why; number; reckon; hair;
Jwdb9n: act; do; make; subdue; subject; celebrate;
Jwnh: he; it; who; those; that;
Nydm9d: sink; baptized; baptize;
Plx: change (Verb: masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ); alter (verb: masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ) ; transmute(Masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ); for; instead;
Fym: death; dead; die; come; bring;
J0: if;
Fym: death; dead; die; come; bring;
f: no; not;
Nymyq: rise; stand; establish; lasting; remaining; abiding; valid;
0nm: what; why; number; reckon; hair;
Nydm9: sink; baptized; baptize;
Plx: change (Verb: masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ); alter (verb: masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ) ;
transmute(Masculine, third; singular; Feminine, third, plural; ); for; instead;
Fym: death; dead; die; come; bring;
Many blessings to you all!
Jing
1 Cor. 15:29 - gbausc - 01-18-2005
Shlama Jing,
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fym Plx Nydm9 0nm Nymyq f Fym J0 Fym Plx Nydm9d Jwnh Jwdb9n 0nm f0w [/font]
"But what should they be doing who are being baptized in the place of the dead (for the sake of the dead) , if the dead are not raised up; Why are they baptized in the place of the dead ?"
Burkhtha w'shlama,
Dave
- Jing - 01-18-2005
Thank you very much, Dave!
I was almost disappointed about the slow traffic here as I checked it many times every day.
As I am a Chinese myself, I need some clearing up about the meaning of "in the place of the dead (for the sake of the dead)".
Does it mean that some one was/is baptized for some dead person (e.g. his friend or relative) who had/has no chance to be baptized?
Thanks!
Jing
Baptized for the dead ? - gbausc - 01-18-2005
Shlama Jing,
That is the plain meaning of the text; however, there is considerable controversy
over this text. Mormons accept this as the plain sense and apparently practice vicarious baptism as effectual in cleansing sin and regenerating the souls of those for whom they are baptized.
Others, such as Baptists, explain it this way:"Baptism (immersion in water)is a symbol of death, burial and resurrection.If there is no resurrection, then baptism has no meaning."
That explanation is plausible, as far as it goes.Baptism is symbolic of death, burial and resurrection, in my opinion.
This explanation does not explain why Paul wrote this with these words: "baptized for the dead".
He did not say, "baptized as a symbol of death, burial and resurrection".
[font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Fym Plx [/font] means "baptized in place of the dead" , or "baptized because of the dead (those who have died)".
Personally, I believe Paul is expounding a form of universalism in 1 Corinthians 15. I am a convinced universalist myself, not because I was trained in this doctrine; quite the contrary; I was trained to be a Pharisee - a militant , firebreathing fundamentalist at a notorious Christian university called Bob Jones University.
I have been an ordained Protestant minister since 1976 , and have studied the Bible earnestly since 1973 in Greek and Hebrew. The Peshitta NT as well as The Greek NT and Hebrew OT promises the salvation of the world in many places, as a result of the atoning work of Jehovah Messiah on the cross.
I hope I have not said too much; I do believe this text indicates that Paul referenced some Christians practiced substitutionary baptism for the dead, and that he referred to it as an orthodox practice, as authority supporting the doctrine of resurrection (whether spiritual or physical).
If he considered it heretical, he has fooled us all; he never said anything against this practice or doctrine when he had the chance !
Blessings,
Dave
- Jing - 01-19-2005
Bro Dave,
Shalom.
Thanks for your clarification and sharing your points.
Then, the Greek text, KJV, and my Chinese Bible say the same thing. I had thought that was a mistranslation that was the reason why I posted in this thread. LOL.
Anyhow, I respect your honest translation of the original text. I would not take practising vicarious baptism as heretic but I still believe that there is a problem in the orginal text if the plane sense is taken.
I began to believe God about 6 years ago and was baptized in the Name of LORD Jesus Christ according to the pattern of Acts 3:28. Apparently, I am associated with a group of Christians that do not believe in the Trinity of God in three persons. I have spent a lot of time online to testify a Message for this hour we received to my Chinese fellows. Of course, my church mainly uses KJV, and I use KJV, Chinese, and occasionally Hebrew and Greek (though I dont know Hebrew nor Greek) for word studies.
I noticed the original languages of NT problem when I surfed for information of Jewish Wedding traditions so that I could better understand the NT of Jesus Christ with His Church.
A brother of mine mentioned the Bible of the Eastern Text had Bride in Mat 25:1 while in the most Bible versions, the Ten Virgins only wait for the Bridegroom. A lot of people believe that the Ten Virgins are the Bride while I believe the Ten Virgins could not be the Brides nor the Bride as the natural setting of the parable does not make sense to me. Therefore, I believe the Ten Virgins are bridesmaids. So...the Aramaic Bible surprised me a lot.
I spent about 10 days in a full time basis to make serious searching about Aramaic Bible and historical facts, not just claiming.
NOW, it convinces me that at least the Peshitta and Peshitto aramaic NT are not less original than the Greek mss.
As I know neither aramaic nor Greek, I will reply heavily on the honest English translations so that I am able to make a comparative Bible study if neccessary.
My accepting Aramaic Bible cannot change my previous faith, but it will lead me to better understand the Word of God.
What makes me happy is, I know both sides of the story...Greek and Aramaic, so that my choice is not based on biased information and pure opinions without true faith.
The sadness would be, it would make the thing harder for me to have Bible studies with those who wont accept the originality of the Peshitta NT. Of course, I am associated with those Christians who believe the West 5 are also inspired. Our current faith is closely related to the fullfillment of the Revelations. We believe it is the end time NOW.
Heh..Hope I did not speak too much.
God bless you!
Jing
PS. I saw the picture of your wonderful family.
- gbausc - 01-19-2005
Shlama Jing,
Thank you for your kind words. You seem to be on the right track, spiritually. Keep seeking; you will find answers and grow in the knowledge of the truth.
Have you seen Paul Younan's Interlinear translation of the Peshitta on this web site ?
He has finished the gospels. We hope to finish the rest of The NT this year.
It is the only one of its kind, translated by one who has spoken Aramaic from childhood.
The important thing to remember about Aramaic is that it was the language Jesus and his countrymen spoke and that they did not know Greek. Josephus, who lived at that time and was a Pharisee and Jewish priest, wrote that the Jews did not understand Greek and did not encourage others to learn it. Josephus wrote the history of the Jewish people in several volumes in AD 73 to AD 90. He wrote everything in Aramaic; He said he did not know Greek sufficiently to speak it.
This should educate those who claim The NT was written in Greek. It was originally written to the Jews of Israel. They would not have been able to read Greek. God would not have done that to them.
Besides, the original language of the scriptures had always generally reflected the language of the characters involved in its accounts.
Why would God give us Jesus' words in Greek if Jesus spoke Aramaic ?
And the His people spoke Aramaic.
So much for that.
Peshitta.org also has two English translations of The Peshitto NT. Check it out.
Many blessings in our Lord,
Dave
- Jing - 01-25-2005
Dear Dave,
That is really kind of you for your encouraging words and useful information about the Aramaic Bible. I believe I have got the most important links.
I have brethren who do believe the originality of the Hebrew/Aramaic manuscripts of the NT. In fact, I have forwarded some articles in another forum I visit frequently to advise the Aramaic primacy of the NT. Though it is annoying to many traditional minds, it is indeed welcomed by some brethren of mine. At least it is not an offense to all when I do 'word' studies using the Peshitta Aramaic NT, likening to many using the Greek mss with concordance. For this purpose, the interlinear translation with a lexicon link will be very important and helpful.
Thank you again, Dave!
God bless you!
Jing
PS. As a further encouragent to me, would you please give an sample literal translation of Col. 1:12-20? In fact, I have a doctrinical issue relevant to those verses. With a doctrinical belief, the following is my rendering without any consideration of the actual translation.
Quote: 01 : 12 T'aOD'uON 8568 LaALoHoA 932 AaB,oA 6 D'aAWOa;N 20797 LaMNoT,oA 12226 D';oRT'uOT,oA 9559 D'XaD'i;WeA 18149 B'NuOHRoA 12771
LaALoHoA AaB,oA D'aAWOa;N LaMNoT,oA D';oRT'uOT,oA D'XaD'i;WeA B'NuOHRoA
8568thanks, profess, confess, promise
932God, god
6father
20797smooth, wipe, worthy, equal, agree, spread --- us
12226part, portion
9559inheritance
18149holy, saint
12771light
Thanks to God the Father [for He] spreaded us portion [of] inheritance [of] saints [in] light,
01 : 13 OI,aRXaN 17237 MeN 12182 WuOLYoNeH 21411 D'KeWuOC,oA 7831 OaA;T';aN 2130 LMaLC'uOT,oA 11994 D'aB,ReH 3266 KaB'i;B,oA 6079
17237rescue, deliver, go away, depart, save, abstain, pursue --- us
12182from
21411his --- authority, dominion, power
7831 dark, darkness
2130 come, bring --- us
11994 realm, kingdom, reign
3266 his --- son
6079 beloved
and rescued us from the power [of] darkness as to bring us [into] kingdom [of] His Son beloved,
01 : 14 HaO 5044 D'B,eH 2249 Ai;T, 723 LaN 10852 I'uORXoNoA 17210 OWuOB,XoNoA 20604 D'aKYoHeA 6807
5044that, those, who
2249in, against, with, at, among, into, by --- him
723is, are
10852to, for --- us
17210salvation, deliverance, redemption
20604forgiveness, repudiation, remission, release
6807sin
in whom it is for us [to have] salvation and remission [of] sin,
01 : 15 HaO 5044 D'HuO;uO 4994 D'MuOT,oA 4723 D'aALoHoA 914 D'LoA 10863 MeT,KZeA 6707 OB,uOC,RoA 2783 D'C,uLHe;N 10030 B'eR;oT,oA 3353
5044that, those, who
4994i.e., that is to say
4723similitude, pattern, type, image, form, exemplar
914God, god
10863no, not
6707behold, see
2783first-born
10030every, entirely, whole, all
3353creation
who is image [of] God unseen, first-born [of] whole creation [in God's Mind or Bosom];
01 : 16 OB,eH 2257 AeT,B'Ri; 3332 C'uLMeD'eM 10090 D'B,aWMa;oA 21647 OB,aAREoA 1996 C'uL 10077 D'MeT,KZeA 6621 OC,uL 10053 D'LoA 10863 MeT,KZeA 6707 AeN 1356 MaOT'B,eA 9632 OeAN 1364 MoRaOoT,oA 12419 OeAN 1364 AaRC,aOS 1921 OeAN 1364 WuOLYoNeA 21410 C'uLMeD'eM 10090 B'iA;D,eH 576 OB,eH 2257 AeT,B'Ri; 3332
2257in, against, with, at, among, into, by --- him
3332make, create
10090everything
21647heaven, sky
1996soil, earth, ground, land, country
10077every, entirely, whole, all
6621behold, see
10053every, entirely, whole, all
10863no, not
6707behold, see
1356if
9632seat
1364if
12419dominion
1364if
1921principality
1364if
21410authority, dominion, power
10090everything
576through, near, hand ----him,his
2257in, against, with, at, among, into, by -- him
3332make, create
in [preparation for] him did [God] create everything [in ] heaven and [on] earth, everything seen and everything unseen, whether on throne, in dominion, in principality, or in authority, everything through him in [preparation for] him being created;
01 : 17 OHuO;uO 5016 D'MeN 12161 XD,oM 18101 C'uL 10077 OC,uLMeD'eM 10062 B'eH 2239 XoAeM 18333
5016i.e., that is to say
12161from
18101before
10077every, entirely, whole, all
10062behold, see
2239in, against, with, at, among, into, by --- him
18333rise, stand, establish
he was from the beginning [in God???s Mind], and everything seen in [preparation for] him was created;
01 : 18 OHuO;uO 5016 RiWoA 19959 D'I,aG,RoA 16403 D'EiD'_T'oA 15265 D'iA;T,aOH_; 733 RiWoA 19959 OB,uOC,RoA 2783 D'MeN 12161 B'e;T, 2701 Mi;T,eA 11516 D'NeHOeA 5078 XaD,Mo; 18122 B'C,uL 10007
5016i.e., that is to say
19959head, beginning, chiefs
16403body
15265church, assembly, congregation
733he --- is, are
19959head, beginning, chiefs
2783first-born
12161from
2701house, abode
11516dead
5078turn, be, was
18122first, fore
10007every, entirely, whole, all
he is head of body the Church, head of first-born from the abode [of the] dead, and first [of] all;
01 : 19 D'B,eH 2249 HuO 5005 /B,oA 17504 C'uLeH 10079 MuOLo;oA 11734 LMeEMaR 15959
2249in, against, with, at, among, into, by --- him
5005he, it, is
17504desire, will
10079every, entirely, whole, all --- him, his
11734consummation, fulfilment, fullness
15959dwell
in him it is the will [of God for His] whole fullness to dwell;
01 : 20 OB,iA;D,eH 601 LaMRaEo;uO 20147 LeH 10842 C'uLMeD'eM 10090 OWa;eN 21159 B'aD,MoA 4670 D'aZXi;I,eH 5900 B'iA;D,aOH_; 579 AeN 1356 D'B,aAREoA 1993 OeAN 1364 D'B,aWMa;oA 21647
601 through, near, hand --- his him he
20147 reconcile
10842 to, for --- him
10090 everything
21159 reconcile, peace
4670 blood
5900 his --- cross, the Cross
579 through, near, hand --- his him he
1356 if
1993 soil, earth, ground, land, country
1364 if
21647 heaven, sky
in him [God] reconciled to [Himself] everything, and made peace, [by] blood [of] his cross, [with all] whether on earth or in heaven.