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Questions re peshitta primacy - judge - 01-02-2005

Hi all,
I have been discussing peshitta primacy in another place and have come up against the following obejections.

Quote:In Mk 15:16, we are told that "the soldiers led him [Jesus] into the courtyard of the palace," and then the text explains for his Roman audience, "that is, the praetorium." That explanation has been translated into the Peshitta.

In Mk 15:42, we are told "that it was the day of preparation," a common idea for anyone with knowledge of Judaism, and then the text explains for his Roman audience, "that is, the day before the sabbath."

In Jn 20:24 we are told of Thomas, a person who the text explains as "called the twin", this explanation is also found hilariously in Aramaic, for the name Thomas means "twin" and we have t)wm) called t)m) (note the extra vowel in the name, ie the first one, to assure correct pronunciation), so we have "the twin called the twin" in Aramaic.

In Jn 20:16 we are told that "Mary said [to Jesus] in Hebrew, Rabbouni," and then the text explains for his non-Semitic audience, "which is to say, teacher," and this is also as it is found in the Peshitta. The readers of the Peshitta apparently wouldn't understand the Aramaic rabuni or as the Peshitta writes it, rabuli.

Look at the material that is only found in Luke, ie not shared with other gospels, and you find that the word, which is spr' in Aramaic, is nomikoi in Greek. In the shared material in Luke, the synoptic material, you find grammateis where you find spr' in Aramaic. Now note the non-randomness of the distribution in Greek. Why is nomikoi found in the purely Lucan material if the text was not redacted first in Greek then translated into Aramaic where the distinction between nomikoi and grammateis was lost?

Any thoughts?


- ograabe - 01-03-2005

January 3, 2005

Whoever wrote these comments apparently reads Greek better than Aramaic. These arguments seem to be based primarily on the Greek translations, not on the original Aramaic of the Peshitta.

Mark 15:16 in the Peshitta just says ???...and the soldiers led him away in the courtyard that was the Praetorium...??? SEEMS ONLY TO BE DESCRIPTIVE OF THE COURTYARD. Of course, Mark was writing to northern Aramaic speaking Christians who were not familiar with Jerusalem or the southern dialect and many if not most of whom were probably not Jews. That???s why he even has to translate some of Jesus??? spoken dialect into northern Aramaic. Where does it say anything about a Roman audience? To assume a Roman audience is circular reasoning. Anyway, why not write in Latin for a Roman audience?

Since Mark was writing to a northern Aramaic speaking audience many of whom were probably not Jews, it would be natural for him to clearly explain about times and places.

Mark 15:42 in the Peshitta say ???...on Friday evening which is before the Sabbath...??? means that it was Friday evening before sundown. Friday evening after sundown IS already the Sabbath. This is just a clear statement that he took action on Friday before the Sabbath had started not an explanation of the Sabbath.

In John 20:24 gives Thomas??? name as ??? [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0mw0t[/font] (Tooma) who was called [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0m0t[/font] (Tama) the twin...??? This is a word play on his name, not a repeat of the name.

In John 20:16 the Peshitta has ???... and said to him in Hebrew Rabbuli ( [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Ylwbr[/font] ) which means Teacher ( [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nplm[/font] )....??? APPARENTLY JOHN BELIEVED ARAMAIC SPEAKING READERS MAY NOT KNOW HEBREW SINCE THEY ARE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES BUT WANTED TO QUOTE MARYAM EXACTLY.

As for the last comment, I don???t know why Zorba chosen certain Greek words to translate Luke???s Aramaic text.

Otto


- judge - 01-03-2005

Firstly thanks for the reply. :-)

ograabe Wrote:In John 20:16 the Peshitta has ???... and said to him in Hebrew Rabbuli ( [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]Ylwbr[/font] ) which means Teacher ( [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0nplm[/font] )....??? APPARENTLY JOHN BELIEVED ARAMAIC SPEAKING READERS MAY NOT KNOW HEBREW SINCE THEY ARE DIFFERENT LANGUAGES BUT WANTED TO QUOTE MARYAM EXACTLY.

As for the last comment, I don???t know why Zorba chosen certain Greek words to translate Luke???s Aramaic text.

Otto

I received a couple of responses to this they are.

Quote:So Mary spoke this apparent Aramaic word in Hebrew now, right? Did she actually speak in Hebrew or was it just coincidentally this one word? And what Hebrew form is this??

One thing we know for sure: neither rabbuni or rabbi means "teacher", and an Aramaic speaker would know that. It is an honorific title given to a teacher, "master". While it is understandable that such a term could get confused in Greek, such confusion wouldn't be there in Aramaic. What we have in the Aramaic is a translation of the confusion in Greek.


and

Quote: John doesn't give it (Mary's response) in Hebrew; ...... it's Aramaic. Rabuni, in fact, is apparently an early form of the word in Palestinian Aramaic, as it's preserved also in some of the (Aramaic) Fragment Targums to the Pentateuch, e.g., fragment D to Gen. 44:18, where it's found twice. (Later targums like Onkelos have riboni (Gen. 33:11) or ribonana' (Gen. 23:6) which, if I remember correctly, are generally considered artificial vocalizations from the (Babylonian?) rabbinic academies.)

any thoughts?


- judge - 01-03-2005

ograabe Wrote:In John 20:24 gives Thomas??? name as ??? [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0mw0t[/font] (Tooma) who was called [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0m0t[/font] (Tama) the twin...??? This is a word play on his name, not a repeat of the name.


Otto

Hi again I received the following response.

Quote:or to be a little more compromising for pronunciation, tauma called tama. "Thomas" means "twin". In 4Q318, an astrological text in Aramaic from Qumran, the name for Gemini was twmy) or tumia, which is seen by the editor of the text, when written fully, to be t)wmy) or taumia. And the Hebrew of Gen 38:27 talks of twins, t)wmym (-ym indicating masculine plural).

Any thoughts anyone?


- judge - 01-03-2005

ograabe Wrote:Mark 15:42 in the Peshitta say ???...on Friday evening which is before the Sabbath...??? means that it was Friday evening before sundown. Friday evening after sundown IS already the Sabbath. This is just a clear statement that he took action on Friday before the Sabbath had started not an explanation of the Sabbath.


Otto

Hi yet again. i received the following reply.

Quote:There is no term "Friday", just "preparation" (rwbt), and there is no indication of "before evening" (this is just judge's belief that the day before the Shabbat ended with evening), just the "evening of preparation", rm$) d(rwb), but this is as meaningful writing "Friday, the day before Saturday" to someone who knows the order of days.



- Paul Younan - 01-04-2005

judge Wrote:
ograabe Wrote:Mark 15:42 in the Peshitta say ???...on Friday evening which is before the Sabbath...??? means that it was Friday evening before sundown. Friday evening after sundown IS already the Sabbath. This is just a clear statement that he took action on Friday before the Sabbath had started not an explanation of the Sabbath.


Otto

Hi yet again. i received the following reply.

Quote:There is no term "Friday", just "preparation" (rwbt), and there is no indication of "before evening" (this is just judge's belief that the day before the Shabbat ended with evening), just the "evening of preparation", rm$) d(rwb), but this is as meaningful writing "Friday, the day before Saturday" to someone who knows the order of days.

Shlama Akhi Michael,

This person obviously has no clue what they are talking about. "Arubta" (the Christian, and I stress *Christian*, word for "Friday") means "setting of the sun".

It marks the day on which Meshikha was crucified and the sun was darkened.

The word does *not* mean "preparation."

This person is an imbecile, probably a 14-year old who is doing a "google" search for whatever he/she can find on Aramaic, and who wants to try and impress you.

The word is derived from the old Aramaic/Hebrew root "Ereb", which means "to set" as in the sun setting in the horizon.

Don't bother with uneducated idiots like this. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


- peshitta_enthusiast - 01-04-2005

Wow talk about laying the smackdown, it is definitely worth it to observe here rather than talk as I learn so much.

Just a quick question - was "Arubta" used for Friday before Yeshua's death? Is it used as "setting of the sun" to indicate that the 7th day was to come?


- Paul Younan - 01-04-2005

peshitta_enthusiast Wrote:Wow talk about laying the smackdown, it is definitely worth it to observe here rather than talk as I learn so much.

Just a quick question - was "Arubta" used for Friday before Yeshua's death? Is it used as "setting of the sun" to indicate that the 7th day was to come?

Shlama Akhi Chris,

Non-Christian Semites use the number as the name of the day: (First-day, second-day.....sixth-day, seventh-day)

Aramaic-speaking Christians renamed the "sixth-day" from "Yoma Shtaa" to "Arubtha", because the sun was darkened on that day when Meshikha was crucified.

See, we have a funny list of names for the week:

(1) Khad b'Shabba (first-of-seven)
(2) Treyn b'Shabba (second-of-seven)
(3) Tlatha b'Shabba (third-of-seven)
(4) Arbaa b'Shabba (fourth-of-seven)
(5) Khamsha b'Shabba (five-of-seven)
(6) Arubtha (setting)
(7) Shabtha (seventh)

See how one sticks out?

Whereas the Jewish names of the days are as follows:

(1) Yom Rishon (first day)
(2) Yom Sheni (second day)
(3) Yom Shlishi (third day)
(4) Yom Arevi (fourth day)
(5) Yom Khamishi (fifth day)
(6) Yom Shishi (sixth day)
(7) Shabbath (seventh)

The bottom line is that the word "Arubta" has nothing to do etimologically with "preparation", as the wannabe-scholar who is arguing with Michael is trying to imply. <!-- s:mad: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/mad.gif" alt=":mad:" title="Mad" /><!-- s:mad: -->


- peshitta_enthusiast - 01-05-2005

Thanks bro <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->