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+--- Thread: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy (/showthread.php?tid=1351)
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Re: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy - gbausc - 01-20-2008
Shlama Ya'aqub,
The mss. are mostly Western Peshitto. There are at least 9 Eastern mss. used among them: 7 in the Gospels and 2 or 3 in Paul's epistles.
Since the majority of mss. collated were Western, and the editors Gwilliam, Pusey, Pinkerton and Gwynn generally followed the majority readings,
the resulting text is the Western Peshitto. All post 1920 editions seem to have remained the same as the 1920 edition.
To my knowledge, there has never been a collation of Eastern mss. to produce a critical Eastern edition. All that would be required are 4 or 5 complete
Eastern mss. and an editor with a lot of time and patience, and we could have a critical Eastern Peshitta edition.
The West-East differences are generally insignificant, apart from the Western 5 books and the Pericope de Adultera.
Dave
Re: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy - yaaqub - 01-20-2008
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Ya'aqub,
The mss. are mostly Western Peshitto. There are at least 9 Eastern mss. used among them: 7 in the Gospels and 2 or 3 in Paul's epistles.
Since the majority of mss. collated were Western, and the editors Gwilliam, Pusey, Pinkerton and Gwynn generally followed the majority readings,
the resulting text is the Western Peshitto. All post 1920 editions seem to have remained the same as the 1920 edition.
To my knowledge, there has never been a collation of Eastern mss. to produce a critical Eastern edition. All that would be required are 4 or 5 complete
Eastern mss. and an editor with a lot of time and patience, and we could have a critical Eastern Peshitta edition.
The West-East differences are generally insignificant, apart from the Western 5 books and the Pericope de Adultera.
Dave
Shlama Dave,
Thank you for clarifying this.
Re: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy - abudar2000 - 01-20-2008
shlomo oH Dave,
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Akhi Abudar,
John Gwynn has found 8 Aramaic mss., 3 of which are Peshitto, with the passage. 2 have the passage at the beginning of the John 8 section, where most Greek mss. have it. Others have it attached to the end of John.
The 1905, 1920, ...1979, 1987, etc. critical editions of The Peshitta NT have this passage. This one does not use The Harklean Version at all and is the first and only popular edition of The Peshitta based on over 70 mss. for its NT text.
Burkta,
Dave
In regards to the passage; I'm not saying that it's not in the Official Peshitto Text that my Church (The Antiochan Syriac Maronite Church) uses, but in the Peshitto text "John 8:1-11" is physically marked as not being part of the original text.
I can't even comment from which other Syriac text the passage came from. But I know for a fact that it wasn't in the original Peshitto Text (or rather combination of books) that comes to us from the Apostles.
It wasn't read as part of the Syriac Maronite Official Lectionary before the year 2005. And the reason why they added it in the 2005 edition of the Lectionary has nothing to do with Tradition.
push bashlomo,
keefa-morun
Re: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy - gbausc - 01-21-2008
Shlomo oh Abudar,
The Western 5 books were not part of the Peshitto mss. either, yet your church includes them as part of the canon.
Why is that?
Dave
Re: Dave's books on Peshitta primacy - abudar2000 - 01-26-2008
shlom lokh oH Dave,
gbausc Wrote:Shlomo oh Abudar,
The Western 5 books were not part of the Peshitto mss. either, yet your church includes them as part of the canon.
Why is that?
Dave
My Church is in union with the Church of Rome, and as such we are compelled by the Church councils.
Also our Church has suffered from deliberate Latinization, and now Arabisation which are causing new members of the Church hierarchy to forget the old Traditions and come up with interesting new Traditions. Ex: The new lectionary of 2005 includes the woman caught in adultery.
Prior to mid 1500's, those books (western 5) weren't part of the Maronite Lectionary, but from the mid 1500's onwards they started appearing in non-official versions of the Lectionary, especially after the Council of Trent. And it was made even worse by the 1736 Maronite Synod established by Rome where Latinization was made official. This forced Latinization stayed in effect until the 2nd Vatican Council, where we were told to restore our Original Tradition; but the Latinizers which have also become the Arabist are still pushing the old agenda with an Arabic twist. As such the current Tradition of the Maronite Church on scriptures differs from the original one (AKA a work in progress between traditionalist and latin-arabist. I hope that the Syriac traditionalists prevail.)
According to the original Tradtion of the Maronite Church the scripture was only read in Syriac (in reality hymned), and if there were members of the community that didn't understand Syriac, then a direct translation of the Syriac Text would be made into that language.
Church regulations still mandate this, but only a few Maronite religious communities still do it.
Please hear the following Maronite Celebration of the Qurbono to see what I mean:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfFm888Zfg&feature=PlayList&p=E13D60C70BBFEC9B&index=0&playnext=1">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOfFm888 ... playnext=1</a><!-- m -->
(Although in this one I don't think the priest did a live translation of the Peshitto, but the Syriac is hymned and an Arabic translation is offered)
Also the Maronites use to have 6 readings stretching from the OT to the NT, during the celebration of the Qurbono, which aren't present anymore. One of my projects is to find these manuscripts, if anyone knows where I can find them please let me know (I currently only have one manuscript, and it covers only a small portion of the combined Lectionary.)
Here are some statistics (These are only the letters/act statistics, and they represent the amount of readings from these books):
(During this period and prior, the Peshitto was divided into text blocks with in a book and not in chapters/passages with in a book as is the practice now)
-Prior to the mid-1500's here are the books that were part of the Lectionary (Block Divisions only, although Sub-Blocks we used but not marked in that time period; i.e. they are not marked in this lectionary):
Romans (27), I Corinthians (27), II Corinthians (19), Galatians (10), Ephesians (11), Philippians (7), Colossians (7), I Thessalonians (6), II Thessalonians (1), I Timothy (6), II Timothy (5), Titus (2), Philemon (1), Hebrews (22), Acts (69), James (6), I Peter (7), and I John (5).
At the end of Acts, we don't have Acts 28:29 - I found it by coincidence.
-The 1993 Lectionary (Block Divisions+ Sub-Block Divisions):
Romans (38), I Corinthians (55), II Corinthians (40), Galatians (22), Ephesians (22), Philippians (15), Colossians (7), I Thessalonians (17), II Thessalonians (7), I Timothy(14), II Timothy (8), Titus (4), Philemon (1 - the whole letter), Hebrews (45), Acts (56), James (12), I Peter (12), II Peter (6), I John (18), II John (2 - whole letter), III John (2 - whole letter), Jude (2), and Revelation (24).
push bashlomo,
keefa-morun