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Hey

I would like to know of the Aramaic definition of the first component of this word, ISRAEL. Of course, we know that EL or EYL refers to 'might' and is sometimes translated as 'god' but my concern is on the first component.

The common view is that this is from SARA meaning STRUGGLE, FIGHT, WRESTLE, but others take the view that it means PRINCE, and others still have said STRAIGHT. Could it be a compound of Aleph-Seen-Resh? If so, what meanings do you come up with in Aramaic?

Thanks
Shlama Gentile,

"Israel" is simply the phonetic spelling in Aramaic of the original Hebrew "Yisra-el" (he wrestled with God). In Aramaic, the phonetic vocalization usually supresses the initial Yudh in Hebrew (i.e., "Yeshua" > "Eshua").
I am of the view that it is not merely an Aramization of a Hebrew word, but rather means TIED WITH EL - a combo of ISRA (to bond/tie) and EL. Jacob, and later the people of Israel, being tied with Him.
Are you Assyrian? Only we Assyrians use Isra to mean "tie/bind"!
shlom lokh oh Paul,

Paul Younan Wrote:Are you Assyrian? Only we Assyrians use Isra to mean "tie/bind"!

We also use the verb "esar" to mean tie/bind. If you notice on Beith Souryoye Morounoye, the word for "links" that we used is "esre". :)

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
Huh - there it is in CAL, too. I thought only we Assyrians used it, but apparently it's got a pretty wide usage.....

)sr V
011 passim to bind
012 Palestinian to prohibit
013 Syr to bewitch, to cast a spell
014 Syr to gird
015 Syr to gather
016 Syr to join (grammatical)
017 Syr to be girt with
018 Syr to vow abstinence
019 JBA to check diarrhea
020 JBA to forbid
041 Palestinian to be prohibited
042 Syr to be bound
043 Syr to be joined
044 Syr to be closed
045 JBA to be forbidden
LS2 37
J 98
LS2 v: )esar

Akhi Gentile - I don't think it's possible for the Aramaic spelling for "Israel" to mean bind. The word is spelled A-Y-S-R-A-Y-L, and the portion A-Y-S-R-A is the relevent part. It contains a Yudh.

I think it's just the phonetic spelling of the Hebrew Yisra-El. (Yisra being the imperfect of the verb esar meaning "struggle~wrestle" - in Aramaic this would be Nisra-el).
The Yodh, just like the Waw and sometimes Aleph, enter into words anyway depending on their grammatical state though. The 3-letter root, as I see it, would still be be aleph-seen-resh. Hope you see what I mean
shlomo,

The word "isra" can also mean "an angel of", so the full meaning of "israyel" could be "an angel of God". According to Cal, under "JBA" dialect. In Western Aramaic we start the word "israyel", with an "Olaph", and then "Yudh".

What do you guys think?

poosh bashlomo ahay,
keefa-moroon
Gentile Wrote:The Yodh, just like the Waw and sometimes Aleph, enter into words anyway depending on their grammatical state though. The 3-letter root, as I see it, would still be be aleph-seen-resh. Hope you see what I mean

Yes, but we have to specify what grammatical state we would be referring to. In this case, the lexical stem A-S-R doesn't contain a Yudh. I can't imagine any state of verbal conjugation (imperfect, infinitive, imperative, etc.) that would include it.

What is the conjagative source of the Yudh?
The main reason I bring this up is because, as most of you know, I reckon that the Peshitta OT is better than th Hebrew versions we have and after reading Lamsas Old Test. Light, the translations and understandings make much more sense.

I also think that Beny Israel does not refer to a race or tribe but to the figurateive use of Beny in Semetic languages in the sense of 'one who adheres to something'. This is used even today in Arabic. Let me give you guys some examples:
'Ibn Harb' in Arabic literally is 'child of war'
'Ibn Yawm' is literally 'child/son of the day'

The first means simply Warrior
The second means 'man of today'

Do you see the figurative use of these words? This is common to all Semetic languages.
i.e.
Bar Nasha - child of humans = humanity collectively
shlomo oh Gentile,

Gentile Wrote:I also think that Beny Israel does not refer to a race or tribe but to the figurateive use of Beny in Semetic languages in the sense of 'one who adheres to something'. This is used even today in Arabic. Let me give you guys some examples:
'Ibn Harb' in Arabic literally is 'child of war'
'Ibn Yawm' is literally 'child/son of the day'

The first means simply Warrior
The second means 'man of today'

Do you see the figurative use of these words? This is common to all Semetic languages.

A simple rule in Semitic languages, when you say "sons of" a country, then you're speaking of its people.
And when you say "sons of" of a person, then unless he's physically your father, then your speaking about the followers of that person.

Ex: (In Lebanese we say the following)
bani Israeel => The people of Israel
bani Mhamad => The followers of Mohammad

Gentile Wrote:i.e.
Bar Nasha - child of humans = humanity collectively

Bar Nasha => Human, (in the context of the Bible -> Son of man -> yeshu' -> msheeho -> Annointed One)
Bnay Nasha => All of humanity

As a side track:
bar lilyo -> The Same Night

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
Yes, this is my point. Hence my understanding that Beny Israel is not a race/tribe.
shlomo oh Gentile,

Gentile Wrote:Yes, this is my point. Hence my
understanding that Beny Israel is not a race/tribe.

If you were to say "Beny Israel" in Lebanon, people would understand it as you saying "the people of Israel" or if you add the Lebanese word "men", then it becomes "a descendant of someone from Israel".

The following passages should clarify it. I quoted the RSV, and I translated the same passages from POT.

Here's an interesting OT passage that I found on RSV:
Genesis, chapter 35
9: God appeared to Jacob again, when he came from Paddan-aram, and blessed him.
10: And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; no longer shall your name be called Jacob, but Israel shall be your name." So his name was called Israel.
11: And God said to him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall come from you, and kings shall spring from you.
12: The land which I gave to Abraham and Isaac I will give to you, and I will give the land to your descendants after you."

From POT
9:And manifested again God upon Jacob while he came from the plough of Aram, and blessed him.
10: And God said to him, do not call again your name Jacob but your name will be Israel, and his name was called Israel.
11: And God said to him, I Am God El-Shadday (The God of the Mountains), multiply and be many, a people and an assembly of nations from you will turn out, and kings from you will cast out.
12: And the land which we swore to Abraham and Issac, to you I will give, and to your seed from after you I will give the land.

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
Hi Abu/Father Dar

Is this an Arabic forum name you have?

I think that when God says to Jacob [heel] that he will be called from now on 'Israel' he means that he will now be 'bound with El' i.e. connected with Him.

Quote:If you were to say "Beny Israel" in Lebanon, people would understand it as you saying "the people of Israel" or if you add the Lebanese word "men", then it becomes "a descendant of someone from Israel".

Interesting stuff here Father D. When you say 'Lebanese' though what do you mean? Arabic? When you say 'men' do you mean the word 'of/from'? However, clearly the word is used to mean follower/member and not only in the biological sense. Hence those of us who follow God's law are Beny Israel you see.

This is a linguistic point, as this is my concern on this Peshitta website [and Paul's as well I think] but this if course has a political link. Going by this understanding I am sure that Beny Israel does not refer to what we understand as 'Jews' in the modern sense.
shlom lokh oh Gentile,

Gentile Wrote:Hi Abu/Father Dar
Is this an Arabic forum name you have?

The name "abudar" started out as a practicle joke that I played on a friend of mine, and afterwards I just used it as an alternative e-mail.

The word "abu" is not commonly used in the Lebanese language.
The word "dar" means "Living Room" in Lebanese.

Both of these words have a Syriac origin. And one of them I think origianlly started out as Akadian.

abu -> aba -> Father
abu (seems to be of Akadian Origin), but in Syriac we have the following words:

aba -> Father (emphatic state)
ab -> My Father
abu -> Father (the word which the following suffix attach to)
abukh -> your father (masculin singular)
abuh -> Her father
abuy -> His father
abun -> Our Father
abukhun -> your father (masculin plural)
abuhun -> Their father
-----------------

dar -> dara -> Court/Chambre/House/etc...

I'll leave it up to you to answer it! :)

Gentile Wrote:I think that when God says to Jacob [heel] that he will be called from now on 'Israel' he means that he will now be 'bound with El' i.e. connected with Him.

The passage clearly says that Jacob's name will become Israel, and that he and his descendants will get the land of Abraham and Issac, which now is called Israel. He also says that from Jacob (i.e. Isreal) other nations will come. Notice the words "a nation and an assembly of nations", if all the nations where the promise land, then the line should only be "assembly of nations".

Gentile Wrote:
Quote:If you were to say "Beny Israel" in Lebanon, people would understand it as you saying "the people of Israel" or if you add the Lebanese word "men", then it becomes "a descendant of someone from Israel".

Interesting stuff here Father D. When you say 'Lebanese' though what do you mean? Arabic? When you say 'men' do you mean the word 'of/from'? However, clearly the word is used to mean follower/member and not only in the biological sense. Hence those of us who follow God's law are Beny Israel you see.

Lebanese is Arabised-Syriac. There's major difference between Lebanese and Arabic.

"men" in Lebanese and Syriac means the same. "From".

Unless your line descends from that of Jacob, then no.
What are the nations other than Isreal that descend from Jacob, I don't know.
Could these passages be a prophetic statement, in regards to all the nations and people of the world that would follow the Law of God, then in that case the descendants could be interpreted in a spiritual way. But the only problem with that is the fact that God declared Abraham to be the father of faith in God's Law. Very Tricky.

But the word "beny Israel" in its current usage (i.e in Lebanon) only means, those who come from Israel and/or who are Jewish.

Gentile Wrote:This is a linguistic point, as this is my concern on this Peshitta website [and Paul's as well I think] but this if course has a political link. Going by this understanding I am sure that Beny Israel does not refer to what we understand as 'Jews' in the modern sense.

It's a question that we'll never be able to answer, since we don't have access to Jacob. ;)

poosh bashlomo,
keefa-moroon
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