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Full Version: Mattai 1:21 & Luqa 1:31 - who named the child?
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Shlama Akhay,

In the Aramaic of Mattai 1:21 - we read:

Quote:"And she will bear a son, and she will call his name Yeshua; for he will save his people from their sins."

The Aramaic word used there, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rqt[/font] can be translated:
  • (1) In the 2nd-Pers. Masculine (see word# 18904), or
    (2) In the 3rd-Pers. Feminine (see word# 18903)

According to Thackston's Grammar (scanned below), the Imperfect inflection of a III-weak verb (in this case, [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rq[/font] ) is identical for both the 2nd-Person Maculine and the 3rd-Person Feminine:

[Image: thackston145.jpg]

Therefore, to give the imperfect for [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rq[/font] in both those cases would be [font=Estrangelo (V1.1)]0rqt[/font] - exactly the word in question which Zorba mistranslated.

This creates a considerable contradiction in the Greek texts - for it is not Yosef who named the child, but Maryam (Luqa 1:31)

A special thanks to Dave for pointing out this wonderful mistranslation and contradiction which is solved by the Peshitta! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

drmlanc

Bravo! Thanks to Dave and Paul for this awesomeness <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

drmlanc

IF the Hebrew is really meant to be taken that Mary would call Jesus Jesus' name Emmanuel, then we see again that it WAS Mary who was to name Jesus, as Dave pointed out:

14 (LAMSA) Therefore the LORD himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
This seems to be talking about two events. In one, the angel is talking to Miriam, and in the other, to Yosef.

Zechariah14
Paul Younan Wrote:Shlama Akhay,

In the Aramaic of Mattai 1:21 - we read:

Quote:"And she will bear a son, and she will call his name Yeshua; for he will save his people from their sins."

[..]

This creates a considerable contradiction in the Greek texts - for it is not Yosef who named the child, but Maryam (Luqa 1:31)

A special thanks to Dave for pointing out this wonderful mistranslation and contradiction which is solved by the Peshitta! <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

I was reading the first chapter of Mattai and I think one does not even have to go to Luqa to justify choosing "she" in verse 21 of Peshitta (but Luqa 1:31 is still needed to see the contradiction in Greek). If I'm reading Aramaic correctly, in verse 25 the person is specified as "she". Now the argument for "she" in verse 21 is even stronger, if we had "he" in verse 21 of Peshitta we would have a contradiction on the same page - Yosef is told to name the child and a moment later (I mean a couple of lines later) Maryam does it. Well, one could argue for flexibility, they are one as a couple so does it really matter which part does the job, but that is not convincing, the Scripture is not written in a sloppy way.

By the way, I think that Greek "ekalesen" in verse 25 is a third person singular Aoristus and can be translated into English either way, he or she. "She" would be more reasonable to me as this is an action closer to the second subject but obviously KJV and other English translations made the wrong choice (I'm wondering why) and translated it as "and he named him".

Just my 2p. But the contradiction is considerable indeed, thank you all for all those observations about contradictions showing mistranslations.

Shlama,
Jerzy
Shlama Akhi Jerzy,

You wrote:
Quote:obviously KJV and other English translations made the wrong choice (I'm wondering why) and translated it as "and he named him".

That is because v. 21 in Greek says Joseph (you shall call) would name The Christ Child, "Ihsous". The translators made their translation consistent with v.21.

I wish I could illustrate what happened in verse 23, where the Greek has 3 readings: "they shall call", "you shall call", "she shall call". They all look very similar in Dead Sea Scroll Aramaic script.
Perhaps Paul will oblige us, with his graphics import capability.
Otherwise, I could email the comparisons to you in a pdf file.

Dave
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Akhi Jerzy,

You wrote:
Quote:obviously KJV and other English translations made the wrong choice (I'm wondering why) and translated it as "and he named him".

That is because v. 21 in Greek says Joseph (you shall call) would name The Christ Child, "Ihsous". The translators made their translation consistent with v.21.

I wish I could illustrate what happened in verse 23, where the Greek has 3 readings: "they shall call", "you shall call", "she shall call". They all look very similar in Dead Sea Scroll Aramaic script.
Perhaps Paul will oblige us, with his graphics import capability.
Otherwise, I could email the comparisons to you in a pdf file.

Dave

Under Jewish custom, the father shall name the child. As in this particular case, Joseph did not name the child but a guardian by engagement with Mary.

Quote:Mat 1:17 All the generations, therefore, are, from Abraham to David fourteen generations, and from David to the captivity of Babylon fourteen generations, and from the captivity of Babylon to the Messiah fourteen generations.
Mat 1:18 And the birth of Jesus the Messiah was thus. While his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they had cohabited, she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. - Peshitta Murdock

From captivity of Babylon to Messiah is 14 generations but we see only 13 generations from Matthew 1:12-16

Mat 1:12 And after the captivity of Babylon,
1) Jeconiah begat Salathiel:
2) Salathiel begat Zerubbabel:
3) Mat 1:13 Zerubbabel begat Abiud:
4) Abiud begat Eliakim:
5) Eliakim begat Azor:
6) Mat 1:14 Azor begat Zadok:
7) Zadok begat Achim:
8 ) Achim begat Eliud:
9) Mat 1:15 Eliud begat Eleazar:
10) Eleazar begat Matthan:
11) Matthan begat Jacob:
12) Mat 1:16 Jacob begat Joseph,
13) (Joseph) the husband (father) of (Mary)
14) Mary, of whom was born Jesus who is called the Messiah.


Is it right to say Mary's father is another person also known as Joseph?