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(05-16-2016, 09:00 PM)Thirdwoe Wrote: [ -> ]Acts 2:36
ܫܪܝܪܐܝܬ ܗܟܝܠ ܢܕܥ ܟܠܗ ܒܝܬ ܝܣܪܝܠ ܕܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ ܥܒܕܗ ܐܠܗܐ ܠܗܢܐ ܝܫܘܥ ܕܐܢܬܘܢ ܙܩܦܬܘܢ
"Therefore, truly know, in all the House of Israel: that MarYa {The Lord-YHWH} and Mshikha {The Messiah}, Alaha {God} has made this Eshu {Yeshua}, who you have crucified."

Thirdwoe, your translation deviates a lot from others. It would be interesting to hear how you parsed the sentence if you took ܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ to be references (if so what sort — name?, title?, property?) of Alaha, rather than functions in which Alaha instituted Yeshua.


Etheridge Wrote:Assuredly, then, let all the house of Israel know, that Lord and Meshiha hath Aloha made this Jeshu, whom you crucified.


Also, isn't God's nature supposed to be a mystery? If so, it would be deeply problematic if an influential version of the Christian holy scriptures were to be "very clear on this matter".
(05-09-2016, 04:42 AM)Thomas Wrote: [ -> ]Andrej: Thanks also for the post.  You included 1Co 15:47, which states "the second man is YHWH from heaven."  But the second man is described as "spiritual"--not "earthly" in 1Co 15:46.  In other words, the second man (YHWH) is spiritual, which echoes my original question: Does YHWH have a flesh and blood body?

Thanks to you both,
Thomas
Thomas,

Maybe what you were looking for is an explanation of the "how". Maybe I can give you a few things to ponder.

Scripture teaches that material coherence is the result of us being permeated by God's Spirit.

"If he set his heart upon man,
if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
All flesh shall perish together,
and man shall turn again unto dust."
Job 34:14-15

The fundamental nature of reality is Spirit, for God is Spirit (John 4:24), and all things exist in God (Ps. 139:7-8, Col. 1:15-17, 3:11, Acts 7:48-50, 17:28, Jer. 23:23-24, Eph. 4:6+10, Rom. 1:20, 11:36, Is. 57:15, 66:1, 1 Ki. 8:27, 2 Chr. 2:5-6, 6:18). From our perspective, we could call the spiritual the metaphysical, though in reality the physical is the lesser reality. God is not a spectator, but directly involved in His creation with His power (cf. John 1:4+9, 1 John 1:1-3, 1. Pet. 1:23-25).

Spiritual does not mean "not physical", God, who is Spirit, has shown Himself in physical form even before the incarnation, for example in Gen. 18 when He mt with Abraham and ate with Him, or when He fought with Jacob. The physical, visible world is dependent on the spiritual, invisible world. Without God's Spirit, none of us could have coherence, and we as humans have been given the breath of life (Gen. 2:7) and His Spirit by God to whom it will return (Ecc. 12:7). Hence, we all have the light of God shining in us (John 1:9).

Scripture says of Mary "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 1:20), and "That which is conceived of the flesh is flesh; and that which is conceived of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6). Jesus was first conceived of the Spirit and hence is a Spirit being, even in His physical form - just as we are spiritual beings if we follow His Spirit. Our human Spirit was given by God and is God's.

"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:
for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him." (John 3:34)
"And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45)
"For whatsoever is conceived of God overcometh the world:
and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." (1 John 5:4)

Jesus Christ the Son of Man, with mind, body, soul and spirit, was received up into glory with all He is, and hence His Spirit is One with God who is Spirit, and He gives His Spirit of life to us. So, our Lord Jesus really has only one Spirit within Him, His Father's. And so we are like Him, as we have no other spirit within us but the Spirit of Christ.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew,
circumcision nor uncircumcision,
Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free:
but Christ is all, and in all."
Colossians 3:11

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body,
whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free;
and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
1 Corinthians 12:13

"Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?
shall I then take the members of Christ,
and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body?
for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."
1 Corinthians 6:15-17

"Neither pray I for these alone,
but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
That they all may be one;
as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
that they also may be one in us:
that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one:
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one;
and that the world may know that thou hast sent me,
and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me,
be with me where I am;
that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me:
for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."
John 17:20-24

"Jesus saith unto her,
Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:
but go to my brethren, and say unto them,
I ascend unto my Father, and your Father;
and to my God, and your God. (...)
Then said Jesus to them again,
Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them,
Receive ye the Holy Spirit: (...)
And Thomas answered and said unto him,
My Lord and my God.
Jesus saith unto him,
Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed:
blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. (...)
But these are written, that ye might believe
that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God;
and that believing ye might have life through his name."
John 20:17+21-22+28-29+31

Peace to you, may our Lord bless you richly
Andrej
Hi Sestir.

You said: " Thirdwoe, your translation deviates a lot from others."

The translation I gave there (shown here below) is much the same as Etheridge's translation, which you gave (shown below it here), though it is more accurate overall than Etheridge's translation of the verse.

Where do you see a problem with it?

Acts 2:36
ܫܪܝܪܐܝܬ ܗܟܝܠ ܢܕܥ ܟܠܗ ܒܝܬ ܝܣܪܝܠ ܕܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ ܥܒܕܗ ܐܠܗܐ ܠܗܢܐ ܝܫܘܥ ܕܐܢܬܘܢ ܙܩܦܬܘܢ
"Therefore, truly know, in all the House of Israel: that MarYa {The Lord-YHWH} and Mshikha {The Messiah}, Alaha {God} has made this Eshu {Yeshua}, who you have crucified."

Now looking at it a bit closer, I think an even better rendering would be thus: "Therefore truly know, all the House of Israel, that MarYa {The Lord-YHWH} and Mshikha {The Messiah}, Alaha {God} has made this Yeshua, whom you have crucified.

Etheridge's translation:
Assuredly, then, let all the house of Israel know, that Lord and Meshiha hath Aloha made this Jeshu, whom you crucified.

You asked: "It would be interesting to hear how you parsed the sentence if you took ܡܪܝܐ ܘܡܫܝܚܐ to be references (if so what sort — name?, title?, property?) of Alaha, rather than functions in which Alaha instituted Yeshua.

First of all, the word MarYa, is not the word for just "Lord", as Etheridge and others have it. This has been discussed here at Peshitta.org, and confirmed by Shamasha Paul Younan, that the "Ya" part is a reference to YAH. So, literally it reads, "Mar" {Lord/Master} "YAH".

When you look at the Aramaic source text, you see that it is Alaha who has made/caused something wonderful happen, i.e. Yeshua, who is both God and Man at the same time, to be both YHWH & The Messiah at the same time.

We know from The Holy Scriptures that The Messiah was going to be a Man, and that He would suffer and die for our sins. And we also know from the same Holy Scriptures that The Messiah is YHWH come in the flesh.

You asked: "Also, isn't God's nature supposed to be a mystery? If so, it would be deeply problematic if an influential version of the Christian holy scriptures were to be "very clear on this matter"."

Do you mean The Aramaic Holy Scriptures? The Peshitta? If so, we are not dealing with "an influential version", but rather, The Holy Scriptures. Not a version, not a translation. So, we shouldn't be surprised when we find that it is very clear on the matters which God has revealed through His holy Prophets and Apostles.

I don't believe God wants to have us in confusion on the matter, do you? It is no unsolved mystery that The Messiah is YHWH, and that Yeshua is The Messiah. The Holy Scriptures are very clear on that matter. The minds of mankind might not be clear though. Of course The Holy Spirit has to reveal it. And He does.

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(05-18-2016, 12:52 AM)Thirdwoe Wrote: [ -> ]When you look at the Aramaic source text, you see that it is Alaha who has made/caused something wonderful happen, i.e. Yeshua, who is both God and Man at the same time, to be both YHWH & The Messiah at the same time.

Fine! So, "Alaha" is subject and "Marya waMshikha" isn't. Then we understand the Aramaic the same way. Etheridge placed the verb "hath" before "Aloha" to indicate that "Marya waMshikha" weren't part of the subject. Murdock and Lamsa move "Marya waMshikha" to the end of the sentence and Murdock further clarifies with "to be" and Lamsa with "both". I am not a native English speaker so I don't know how much this needs to be clarified. Perhaps the comma in your translation is enough.
It's a difficult verse to put into the English language and have it read smoothly. I have tried to use the commas to help it make better sense while retaining a closer word order which I like to do when possible.



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Bretheren,

Acts 2:36 is parallel to Luke 2:11. God has made this Jesus whom they crucified both LORD and Christ. According to 1 Corinthians 12, there is a distinction between the administration of the LORD and the power of God. God made Jesus LORD in glorification, when the Son of Man ascended above all heavens to fill all things (Eph. 4:10), and hence has been given all power in heaven and on earth (Matt. 28:18). So God gave the office of the LORD (the power) and the anointing of the fullness of the Holy Spirit without measure to Jesus who is Christ the LORD (His identity).

Of course this was also written in consideration of Moses, as Jesus was a prophet like him, and Moses stood before Pharao speaking 
To understand the concept of being LORD to be an office, cf. Moses before Pharao, and the hand of Moses that holds the staff is identified as the Hand of the LORD:
"And the LORD said unto Moses,
See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh:
and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
Thou shalt speak all that I command thee: (...)
And the LORD said unto Moses,
Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.
Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning;
lo, he goeth out unto the water;
and thou shalt stand by the river's brink against he come;
and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thine hand.
And thou shalt say unto him, (...)
Thus saith the LORD,
In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD:
behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand
upon the waters which are in the river,
and they shall be turned to blood."
Exodus 7:1-2+14-17

The difference is, Jesus Christ has this office for all eternity (Dan. 7:9-14, Lk. 1:33, Heb. 1:8), and only had to be given it because He first laid it down (which did not change His identity as Christ the LORD but rather His conduct in relation to us, cf. Lk. 2:11, John 17).

There was a lot of good stuff, but personally I do not agree with everything said so far. Imho, the Father does have a name, which is why we are told to baptize in His Name (Matt. 28:19). However, the Name by which we address the Father is no different from the Name in which we have faith, the Name of the Son of God. There is no way to address or identify the Father apart of the Son. In relation to creation, God is at all times Father, Son and Holy Spirit - the LORD Jesus Christ.

[Image: 13227058_10154108104448290_8042419133624...e=57E6CD3C]
Yes, The Messiah, The Word pre-incarnate, was always with The Father from eternity past, and shared His glory.

"“Now, glorify me, my Father, in union with yourself, in that glory which I had in union with you before the universe was.” John 17:5 - Bauscher.

When I said that Scripture gives no name to The Father, I mean as a distinct name, specifically calling Him by name. We know that The Word of God is YHWH and the I AM, as these names/titles are given by the pre-incarnate Word/Son of God, The Messiah, and He is identified as such in the NT.

Furthermore, The Father gave His only begotten Son the Name which is above every name, the only name by which mankind can be saved.

ܡܛܠ ܗܢܐ ܐܦ ܐܠܗܐ ܐܣܓܝ ܪܡܪܡܗ ܘܝܗܒ ܠܗ ܫܡܐ ܕܡܝܬܪ ܡܢ ܟܠ ܫܡܗܝܢ܀
9 Because of this; Alaha {God} has also greatly exalted Him, and has given unto Him The Name which is better than all names,
ܕܒܫܡܗ ܕܝܫܘܥ ܟܠ ܒܪܘܟ ܬܟܘܦ ܕܒܫܡܝܐ ܘܒܐܪܥܐ ܘܕܠܬܚܬ ܡܢ ܐܪܥܐ܀
10 that at The Name of Yeshua, every knee will bend, those in the Heavens, and in the Earth, and those from under the Earth,
ܘܟܠ ܠܫܢ ܢܘܕܐ ܕܡܪܝܐ ܗܘ ܝܫܘܥ ܡܫܝܚܐ ܠܫܘܒܚܐ ܕܐܠܗܐ ܐܒܘܗܝ܀
11 and every tongue will profess that MarYa {The Lord-YHWH} is Yeshua The Messiah, unto The Glory of Alaha {God}, His Father.

John 17:11 “From now on, I do not dwell in the world, but these are in the world, and I am coming to join you. Holy Father, keep them in your Name - that Name which you have given me, so that they shall be one, just as we are.” -Bauscher

So, it seems that The Name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit is.... YESHUA, He who is YHWH manifest in the flesh.

I think this is why we see the Apostles in the book of Acts, always baptizing the new believers in The Name of Yeshua, when Yeshua instructed them to baptize all in The Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

They got it...

When one is Baptized in The Name of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit... That Name they are baptized in, is none other than YESHUA, our Lord and Savior, The Messiah.


Shlama...

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