Peshitta Forum

Full Version: List of Eastern Manuscripts?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Greetings all,

I've heard from some that the Eastern Peshitta manuscripts agree remarkably and have few variants. How do you know? Have you compared the supposed 350 manuscripts with each other? Is there a definitive study that has been done between them? More so, how can we (I) view the manuscripts to study and count the variants for myself?

I trust that the answer must be out there, and I would greatly, greatly appreciate answers from those who have this information (Paul Y., etc.) Please kindly point me to manuscripts that fit within the Eastern tradition, so that I can study them.

For instance, I find manuscripts like this (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.schoyencollection.com/bible-collection-foreword/other-bible-translation/syriac-bible/syriac-new-testament-ms-2080">http://www.schoyencollection.com/bible- ... nt-ms-2080</a><!-- m -->) and like this (<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=0716">http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=0716</a><!-- m -->). Are these Eastern manuscripts? Can you point me to accessible Eastern manuscripts?

Grace and peace,

Thomas
Do you live in England? Many of them are in the museum there, and few are available to the public to examine. Those scholars who have examined them, all say the same thing....the Eastern text has remained nearly static through the centuries of copies, with very few scribal errors as well to note.

I have only found 2 or three so far in the Kahbouris manuscript after systematically going through each book, chapter, verse, word. I'm looking through Luke now going backwards to Matthew.

There is a cataloged listing online, but I'll have to find the link later.
Quote:Do you live in England? Many of them are in the museum there, and few are available to the public to examine. Those scholars who have examined them, all say the same thing....the Eastern text has remained nearly static through the centuries of copies, with very few scribal errors as well to note.

No dearest Chuck, I don't live in England; but I'd love to go with you and have a look at the manuscripts <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> So, this post is about getting cold hard facts--actual manuscript data. Yes, the claims about the uniformity of the Eastern texts abound, but where are the numbers, the data, the published studies? At least the Greek scholars have produced these numbers for the Greek side of things, and my suspicion is that they might have reason to ignore that Aramaic side of things until thorough scholarship is done.

I'm interested in seeing scholarship on the Aramaic side of things... But apparently, from what I've read here, both Andreas Juckel's and George Kiraz' comparative analysis weren't legitimate comparisons for the Eastern Peshitta according to Paul Younan (<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3737&p=23251&hilit=juckel#p23251">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3737&p=23251&hilit=juckel#p23251</a><!-- l -->), and so, I think that it is wonderful that akhan Paul offered to have the Khabouris colophon re-examined, and I'd like to know the outcome.

I see in your other post (<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3228&p=24146&hilit=khabouris+colophon#p24146">viewtopic.php?f=17&t=3228&p=24146&hilit=khabouris+colophon#p24146</a><!-- l -->) that you named a few:
Quote:The Khabouris, The Goodspeed, The Yonan, The Houghton, and The Mingana manuscripts

By "Goodspeed" are you referring to Ms. 716, part of the Schoyen collection? If so, I found the answer to one of my original questions in this post. Here is what the Schoyen collection says about Ms. 716: "A large fragment of the book of Acts written in an elegant East Syrian Estrangela script and dating from the 6th or 7th century AD. The folios appear to be numbered in reverse order, but they are easily legible. The Ms reflects the Peshitta text, with very few variants compared to the Bible Society edition. The vowel points used in this Ms and the vowels themselves, indicate that this is a Ms of the Church of the East. It is one of the earliest eastern Syriac Ms I have ever seen."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but here is that actual material that we have to work with for Eastern Peshitta:

1) Khabouris (11th-12th)
2) Mingana 148 (17th-18th)
3) Goodspeed Ms. 716 (5th-6th)
4) The Houghton (can you fill me in on this please?)
5) 1905/1920 CE, but as you or others asked, how do we know which manuscripts--eastern, western, etc.?

Quote:I have only found 2 or three so far in the Kahbouris manuscript after systematically going through each book, chapter, verse, word. I'm looking through Luke now going backwards to Matthew. There is a cataloged listing online, but I'll have to find the link later.

I know that you're researching hard on this, and I love that about you. But I don't understand your comment above, because I don't know what you mean by "2 or three." What are you comparing the Khabouris against?

Grace and peace,
Thomas
2 or 3 scribal errors in the Khabouris.

Thomas, if you are really wanting to do the work and confirm what scholars have been saying all all along about the text of the Eastern Peshitta, then it is going to cost you thousands of dollars and years of your life. Are you willing and able to do that?

You will know you have an Eastern only text of The Aramaic NT when that copy has these words in Acts 20:28 "Idtha d'Mshikha" "the Church of the Messiah, which He purchased with His own blood.", rather than "Idtha d'Alaha" "the Church of God, which He purchased with His own blood".

If you want to look at as many manuscripts as you possibly can, and have lot's of money to spend and lots of time too...then here is a partial listing of certain manuscripts housed in certain places in the world. You will have to travel there and pay to examine them there, or perhaps pay for copies to be sent to you.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_Syriac_New_Testament_manuscripts">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_th ... anuscripts</a><!-- m -->

The Khabouris, Ms Syriac 4 (Houghton Library), The Mingana 148, The Goodspeed, can be viewed online... just use the search bar to the top right and put those names in and the links will be found.

The Khabouris and Mingana can be seen for every page at Dukrahan.com, as well as the 1886 printed Peshitta, which is an Eastern text Peshitta, printed from Eastern Manuscripts.

Aramaicbooks.com has a nice printed edition of the Eastern Peshitta's text, with the W5 from the 1891 Mosul edition.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.aramaicbooks.com//product_info.php?cPath=37&products_id=31">http://www.aramaicbooks.com//product_in ... ucts_id=31</a><!-- m -->

Here is another nice printed Peshitta which ships from a local Parish near me, which I attend for the Aramaic Liturgy.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.maryosipparish.org/GiftShop.aspx">https://www.maryosipparish.org/GiftShop.aspx</a><!-- m -->


As I have compared hundreds of verses between the Eastern manuscripts I can look at myself, I have not seen any variants of any note, from goodspeed of the 6th century, to the Khabouris of the 10th-12th century, the 1199 Houghton Ms, the 1613 A.D. Mingana...they all read the same, verbatim. I have found only 2 or three scribal errors as I said so far in the khabouris, which are not made in the others.

I don't think we will find a 100% perfect copy, but I think the Mingana is as close as it gets in manuscript form.

The Western text manuscripts have been compromised to varying degrees, as they were made by a few groups which wanted to bring the Peshitta more inline with the Greek text in a few places, which supported their Christology, but this is just a few verses, and by and large, but for some spelling of names and places, and some dialectical differences, they are much the same text as that of The Original Eastern Peshitta's text.

.
The Goodspeed ms

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=0716">http://goodspeed.lib.uchicago.edu/ms/index.php?doc=0716</a><!-- m -->
Thank you Chuck,

I thank you once again for your willingness to guide and point in the direction of good resources. These ...
Quote:Khabouris, Ms Syriac 4 (Houghton Library), The Mingana 148, The Goodspeed
seem to be a terrific starting point for the research on Eastern texts, and in regards to further investigation of various manuscripts housed in museums, etc., we'll have to see.

It seems to me, though I could be wrong, that the Aramaic proponents would benefit with actual quantitative data about how many variants there are in their favorite textual tradition (Eastern or Western, etc.), versus only making qualitative statements. Of course, I mean no offense to you or anybody else, but don't expect Greek primacists to roll over based on qualititative claims.

To that effect, you are such a blessing once again, Chuck. Thank you for the info on these manuscripts above <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Thomas
When we know what we know, Thomas, it's like trying to prove your wife is the most beautiful women in the world to those who are married to other women. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
Quote:... it's like trying to prove your wife is the most beautiful women in the world to those who are married to other women. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Hmm... I'm not sure that this analogy regarding women fully applies. Yes, I agree that there are
Quote:qualitative
preferences for certain types of women (blonde vs. brunette, tall vs. short) just as their are
Quote:qualitative
preferences for certain textual traditions. (Aramaic vs. Greek, etc.).

On the other hand,
Quote:quantitative
measures may also be important for your selection of both women and textual traditions. For example, would you prefer a woman with the following features? 1) two legs, 2) two eyes, 3) two ears, 4) 1 mouth, 5) 1 nose...

or would you prefer a woman with these--let's call them variants? 1) three legs, 2) one eye, 3) four ears, 4) 3 mouths (trust me, you don't need more than one). <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

So I'm simply saying that both qualitative and quantitative measures do apply--obviously more so to the issue of manuscripts than women; but hopefully you see my point Up till now, or aside from studies I've read of like Mr. Juckel's and Kiraz', I've only seen qualitative statements regarding the Eastern Peshitta, like "The Peshitta has nowhere near the variants as the Greek," or (when hard-pressed) "Yes, the Peshitta does have variants, but they aren't anything like the Greek variants" etc.

So, I'm not saying these things in a fault-finding way. I'm just asking if anybody as done the work, and if not, where are the resources so we can get started on the work. To your previous statement about the cost of studying, I'm aware that there is a cost, and if God wills, then, perhaps, I will be priveleged to contribute to the scholarship. As of now, I'm simply checking to see what has or hasn't been done, and who may or may not be interested in doing.

Grace and peace,

Thomas
From what I have seen and heard from others that know the text, there isn't much to talk about. The Aramaic manuscripts are as about the same as you can get for handwritten copies. Only a computer could have done better for the ones I've looked over...and even computers get things wrong from time to time.

If you want to try to examine all the Eastern Ms and see if they are as close to the same as everyone says they are, and can afford to do so, then I say go for it. Make it your life's work if God has called you to it...if not, maybe there is another task you can spend your time and resources on.

Those who read and study the Aramaic Bible, really are quite happy with what they find therein. I know I am.
After checking with the Harvard University Library Website, I notice that they have the 1199 Houghton (Ashael Grant) Manuscript available to look over. This is as true to an Eastern Peshitta Manuscript as you will find.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/44443013?n=6&printThumbnails=no">http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/444 ... mbnails=no</a><!-- m -->

.