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When I look at five Greek New testament versions at dukhrana.com
I noticed that all of them almost everywhere coincide.

My logic is: If they were translated by different authors from Peshitta then we would have
very different translations. E.g. Lamsa's and John W. Etheridge's translations are very different. And they must be different for a word usually has certain amount of synonyms in another language and different translator picks different synonym.
Looking as these Greek versions are almost identical, it looks to me
that they have one common single Greek New Testament source.

On the other side we have around 4,000 old Greek manuscripts and if some of them were translated by different authors from Peshitta they would be VERY different but it looks to me that they were copied from one single Greek source. I am not talking about corruptions but about the translation.

Now the issue is this single Greek source appeared as original or as translation.
When I read Peshitta and Greek then Peshitta looks to me way more logical then the Greek text. It tells me that Peshitta text looks more early than the Greek one.
Shlama Akhi Ivan,

No matter which side you are on (Aramaic Primacy, or Greek Primacy), the most logical conclusion is that the other one was translated very early on. It would have had to have been. Both Aramaic and Greek were the international languages of the time - the languages of two great empires that bordered each other near the Holy Land. Even Latin would have been translated very early on.

I have no issue with the Greek having been translated by either the Apostles themselves in some cases, or their immediate disciples (perhaps with their guidance.) I can see Paul or Luke being involved, I cannot see a fisherman like Peter being of much help.

So yes, I've always approached this with the mindset that there was a single, very early, Greek translation (of the epistles, individually at the local congregation), and there were at most 2-3 different Greek recensions (some maybe compared against the original Aramaic and revised.) The Byzantine, the Egyptian and an independent "Western" text. The rest are copyist errors or variations.

+Shamasha
Shlama akhi Paul,

of course I cannot support corrupted Greek text.
Quote:The Byzantine, the Egyptian and an independent "Western" text. The rest are copyist errors or variations.
I knew about the three families.

Concerning the recensions, so they always until present time are engaged
in critical corrections and collations with different manuscripts thinking that they refine the text. But through all the history they thought this. Personally, I believe its continuation of corruption of the Greek text.

The most interesting thing is who did these corruptions and what made them do this.
Cause many corruptions are are evidently willful, others are just technical mistakes.

Logically I think this way
1. A translator (copyist) tries to convey his biased understanding in few extra words to make it more clear.
2. A translator (copyist) tries to emphasis his beliefs by adding something thinking it is for good cause.
3. Enemies of Christianity tried to corrupt Christianity by corrupting their texts.
4. Technical mistakes.
5. Critical collations and "refining" of the text which is continuations of corruptions.

I was reading in the past one explanation that heretics tried to distort the text according to their beliefs but the Church of Greece preserved the true and right text. BTW, this text is almost identical to Peshitta.

I know that emperor Constantine was paying money to copyists to promote certain version.

Besides Greek manuscripts we have Peshitta/Peshitto differences. Personally reading and collating about two short books I found many differences. And I feel very sorry for Stephen that in his Khaboris project he filled out the illegible parts with WesternPeshitto 1905 instead of e.g Mingana 148 to have one solid Eastern type text.
Quote:And I feel very sorry for Stephen that in his Khaboris project he filled out the illegible parts with WesternPeshitto 1905 instead of e.g Mingana 148 to have one solid Eastern type text.

IPO, could you check with the Mingana and compare it's readings against the list I've made, where I show the 21 variants (so far) between the Eastern and the Western Aramaic texts, those are the "major" differances, not the smaller word order of prases that do not change the statement, there are a number of those. I have a hard time finding my way around the Mingana, and am curious if it's exactly as the Khabouris is in those places.

Shlama,
Chuck
This is the Mingana index
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Paste the variations here that we may look into it. For me major or minor variations are variations anyway.
I sent the list to your privet message box, as it really should not go with this thread, and I don't know how to put the link to the other thread here. It's probably simple right? <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Shlama,
Chuck
Its your choice but I would bring everything to light.
I replied to the pm.
Mouse right click and open in new window -
by this way you get link address.
IPOstapyuk Wrote:When I look at five Greek New testament versions at dukhrana.com
I noticed that all of them almost everywhere coincide.

The reason of why they coincide is because the scholars never translated from the Greek Manuscripts, all of them use the same critical editions. But if you compared the NIV and the KJV you would find that a lot of verses in the KJV that don't appeared in the NIV. The reason is because they come from two families of text, the Byzantine and the Alexandrian. NIV and most of the new translations use the Wescott and Hort. But imagine, if the scholars would take different manuscripts for each translation then you would have a total mess.
Ahki Ivan,

Go to the Peshitta tool Dukhrana.com and turn on the five Greek versions, and turn on the three Aramaic English versions...then check these five verses listed below out. See that?

Matthew 17:21
Matthew 18:11
Matthew 19:9
Matthew 20:7
Matthew 23:14

Shlama,
Chuck
Matthew 17:21 - Nevertheless this kind does not come out, except by fasting and prayer.
Present in Khaboris, Mingana 148 and Peshitto 1905.

Greek versions:
absent in
Westcott-Hort 1881 combined with Nestle-Aland 27th variants
Tischendorf 8th
present in
New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform 2005
Stephens' 1550 Textus Receptus combined with Scrivener's 1894 Textus Receptus)
Official Greek Orthodox Church NT
--------
Matthew 18:11 - For the Son of man, hath come to give life to that which was lost.
Present in Khaboris, Peshitto 1905, and Mingana 148
Greek versions:
absent in
Westcott-Hort 1881 combined with Nestle-Aland 27th variants
Tischendorf 8th
present in
New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform 2005
Stephens' 1550 Textus Receptus combined with Scrivener's 1894 Textus Receptus)
Official Greek Orthodox Church NT
------------
Matthew 20:7 - They said to him, Because no man has hired us. He said to them, You also go to the vineyard, and you will receive what is right.
Present in Khaboris, Peshitto 1905 and Mingana 148

Greek versions:
absent in
Westcott-Hort 1881 combined with Nestle-Aland 27th variants
Tischendorf 8th
present in
New Testament in the Original Greek: Byzantine Textform 2005
Stephens' 1550 Textus Receptus combined with Scrivener's 1894 Textus Receptus)
Official Greek Orthodox Church NT

Clementine Vulgate:
Matthew 20:7 - Dicunt ei: Quia nemo nos conduxit. Dicit illis: Ite et vos in vineam meam.
Here "and you will receive what is right" is absent
--------------
Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you have shut off the kingdom of heaven against men; for you do not enter into it yourselves, and do not permit those who would enter
Present in Khaboris, Peshitto 1905 and Mingana148

verses 13 and 14 are same in Greek...maybe dukhrana.com messed up this part.

Clementine Vulgate:
Matthew 23:13 - V? autem vobis Scrib?, et Pharis?i hypocrit?: quia clauditis regnum c?lorum ante homines. Vos enim non intratis, nec introeuntes sinitis intrare.
Matthew 23:14 - V? vobis Scrib?, et Pharis?i hypocrit?: quia comeditis domos viduarum, orationes longas orantes: propter hoc amplius accipietis iudicium.

I wish Paul would allow Greek font here.
So the Eastern text is matching here.

I think would be good idea to collate some modern printed edition of eastern text to the older manuscripts.