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Pray for me Luc, an unworthy sinner.
Alan G77 Wrote:Pray for me Luc, an unworthy sinner.
I second that achi.

The God of our Lord, Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may He give you a spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you will have full knowledge of Him. I pray that He will give light to the eyes of your hearts, so that you will understand the future to which He has called you, what rich glories there are in the inheritance He has promised His people, and how surpassingly great is His power working in us who trust Him. It works as the same mighty strength He used when He raised Christ from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in heaven. May you receive the fullness of that strength and blessing in Jesus?s precious name. Amen. (based on Ephesians 1:17-20)
Shlama Konway; Shlama all,

I wasn't expecting to meet a full preterist in this community. I would like to share a few passages from Peshitta to explain why I believe in the total fulfillment of New Testament Prophecy in the first century. I'll be quoting from Etheridge's translation. Let's jump right in. Markus 14:53-62. (Compare with Mattai 26:57-64)

And they led Jeshu to Kaiapha, chief of the priests: and were gathered together to him all the chief priests and the scribes and the elders. But Shemun from afar came after him, until within the court of the chief of the priests: and he sat with the servants, and warmed (himself) at the fire. But the chief priests and all the assembly of them sought against Jeshu testimony to put him to death, but they found not. For when many bore witness against him, their testimonies were not equal. But men rose up against him, witnesses of falsehood, and said, We heard him say, I dissolve this temple which is made with hands, and in three days I build another not made with hands. But neither so was their testimony equal. And the chief of the priests arose in the midst, and questioned Jeshu, and said, Returnest thou no answer ? what witness against thee these ? But Jeshu was silent, and answered him nothing. And again the chief of the priests demanded, and said, Art thou the Meshicha, the Son of the Blessed? And he, Jeshu, said to him, I am: and you shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming upon the clouds of heaven.

Note the audience. Yeshua is speaking directly to Kaiapha, although Murdock reads "ye shall see" indicating a plural audience. So Yeshua seems to be saying that the chief priests, scribes and elders who held him on trial would be alive to witness his coming-with-the-clouds. The context of this trial is, it is the night before Yeshua is to be crucified, and Yeshua just gave a prophecy. If he doesn't come-with-the-clouds within the lifetime of chief priest Kaiapha, he is guilty of violating Deuteronomy 18:20 and deserves the sentence he is about to receive. Think about that. If Yeshua didn't return within the span of a generation from when he left, he did not die on the cross to atone for sin; He was executed under the Law of Moishe as a false prophet. Next, Yukhanan 21:20-23

AND Shemun turned, and saw the disciple whom Jeshu loved following; he, who leaned at the supper upon the bosom of Jeshu, and said, My Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee ? This when Kipha saw, he said to Jeshu, My Lord, and this, what ? Jeshu saith to him, If I will that this wait until I come, what (is that) to thee ? Come thou after me. And that word went forth among the brethren, that that disciple dieth not. But Jeshu did not say, He dieth not, but, If I will that this (man) wait until I come, what (is that) to thee ?

I accept that this is not a promise to the disciple Yeshua loved that he would live to see his coming, but it suggests the possibility which indicates that a short, rather than far off, time frame was in mind. Mattai 16:24-28. (Compare with Luka 9:23-27)

Then said Jeshu to his disciples. Whosoever willeth to come after me, let him deny himself, and let him take up his cross and follow me. For whosoever willeth to save his life, shall lose it; and whosoever will lose his life for my sake, shall find it. For what shall a man be profited, if the whole world he shall acquire, and his soul shall perish? or what equivalent shall a man give for his soul? For it is to be, that the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his holy angels, and then shall he render unto every man according to his works. AMEN, I say unto you, There are men standing here who shall not taste death, until they shall have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

As before, the audience is extremely important for this passage. Yeshua is speaking to his disciples. Some of his disciples would be alive to see the coming-in-his-kingdom of the son of man. If not, he is a false prophet. I highlighted a key verb in this passage, rendered "it is to be," the aramaic underlying that phrase XXXX would be better rendered "it is ready to happen." This is what full preterists call imminence language. It's not clear from most english translations, but is evident in the ORIGINAL text of Peshitta. It was already alluded to that this passage was fulfilled at the Transfiguration; it was not. Plain and simple, nobody can explain that upon the mount of transfiguration the son of man came and rendered to every man according to his works. Mattai 23:33-39

Serpents, birth of vipers ! how will you escape from the judgment of gihana ? On this account, behold, I send to you prophets, and wise men, and scribes; (some) of these you shall kill and crucify; and (some) of these you shall scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city. So that there shall come upon you all the blood of the just which hath been shed upon the earth; from the blood of Habil the righteous, unto the blood of Zakaria-bar-Barakia, whom you slew between the temple and the altar. Amen I say unto you, that all these shall come upon this generation. Urishlem, Urishlem ! who killest the prophets, and stonest them who are sent unto her, what times would I have gathered thy children, as gathereth the hen her young ones beneath her wings, and you would not ! Lo, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, That you shall not see me from henceforth, until you shall say, Blessed is he who cometh in the name of the Lord.

Again we have Yeshua speaking to the Pharisees of his generation. He promises to hold THEM accountable for all the righteous blood shed in the history of the world. He promises punishment to THEIR generation. To the (personified) city of Urishlem he promises, SHE shall not see him, until SHE recites Psalm 118, calling on the name of YHWH for salvation at the time of his judgment. Now it should go without saying that Urishlem could not see Maran coming unless Maran came before Urishlem was destroyed. The Urishlem which slayed the prophets was utterly destroyed by roman armies under Titus in AD70, so it follows that Yeshua should have returned by that time. Mattai 24:33-34

So also, when all these are seen, you know that it cometh to the door. Amen I say to you, that this race shall not have passed away until all these shall take place.

It was against my better judgment to use Etheridge for this passage. Both Murdock and Lamsa correctly render XXXXX as generation, rather than race. It is the same word used in the previous passage. In response to the disciples' question in v3, "when shall these things be?" it would be inappropriate and wholly insufficient for Yeshua to respond "before the extinction of the jewish race." If he wanted to be so vague, why give so many clues? It is clear from the context of the whole 24th chapter of Mattai, that although it would be impossible to know the exact day or the exact hour of Meshicha's return, his disciples WOULD BE ABLE to recognize the signs and know that it was drawing near. This is exactly what we see in the epistles of Yaqub, Keepa and Yukhanan. "Don't you remember this is what Maran told us was going to happen? This is how we know the end is approaching." I can give specific examples but I will save it for a later post. I saved this passage for last, because I know it is not part of Peshitta. Revelation 1:7

Behold, he cometh with clouds, and all eyes shall see him, and they also who transfixed him; and for him shall mourn all the tribes of the earth. Yes, Amen !

Aside from not knowing the meaning of the english word "transfixed," the aramaic XXXX has a meaning of pierce, hit, stab and so on. The clear indication of this text is that those responsible for crucifying Meshicha would be alive to face his judgment. Along with all the evidence from the gospels, this places the timing of the second coming within a generation from the ascension.

I apologize if this discussion is inappropriate for this forum. I'm not a Syriac Orthodox Christian, I don't belong to the Church of the East but I am a sola scriptura protestant who happens to believe in the primacy of Peshitta. I don't know of a single verse in Peshitta that teaches a future-to-us return of Meshicha. Every passage that attributes a time statement to it places the event in the near-future for the first century saints. I believe all the events associated with the second coming -- the great tribulation, the great commission, the rapture, the resurrection, the judgment of the living and the dead and the end of the world -- are all ancient history to us in the 21st century. I believe the new Urishlem, mount Zion, the New heavens and the new earth, the world without end, are all present realities for us who are in Meshicha. And if anybody wants to discuss what any of that means, I am happy to answer questions.

Shlama,
Brian
My apologies for the lack of aramaic words. I had copied and pasted them into the body of the text but they caused an error when I went to post. I actually lost the whole thing the first time and had to start over. (d'oh) Anywhere you see XXXX, maybe you can look up the verse for yourself to see what word I'm talking about.
:

BKnight,

Quote:I believe all the events associated with the second coming -- the great tribulation, the great commission, the rapture, the resurrection, the judgment of the living and the dead and the end of the world -- are all ancient history to us in the 21st century. I believe the new Urishlem, mount Zion, the New heavens and the new earth, the world without end, are all present realities for us who are in Meshicha.

Partial Preterism, Yes...full Preterism, No. This false teaching (full Preterism) is masterfully dismantled, point by point and verse by verse, leaving no stone un-turned by Brother Steve Gregg, whom I know personally. Here is his refutation of the false doctrine of full Preterism.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_lectures.php#WhenShallTheseThingsBe">http://www.thenarrowpath.com/topical_le ... seThingsBe</a><!-- m -->


Shlama,
Chuck
Shlama Chuck,

Thanks for the link. I have listened to the first two of that fourteen part series, and I think Steve Gregg is a talented teacher. I doubt I'll ever have the opportunity to debate him, but my friend Don Preston will - next year in September. (I've marked my calendar.)

If you could tell me specifically in which of the 14 lectures he masterfully dismantles full preterism, I will give it a listen and share my thoughts with you.

Otherwise I'm interested in your opinions. Did Yeshua lie to his disciples? Even to the temple court? Was the crucifixion an appropriate and just punishment for a presumptuous would-be prophet? Do you interpret the passages I quoted differently than what I explained?

Shlama,
Brian
:

For a longer discussion (a few days) I am willing to discuss this topic with you on your Facebook page, or in a privet discussion here in the personal message area, if our discussion is only or mostly focused on the idea of it, and not on the text, as worded in the Aramaic NT.

Because, it's not the purpose of this forum to deal with non-Peshitta text Doctrinal matters and I don't want to violate the Moderators wishes...while most people who come here, do so to learn about the Aramaic text and its relationship to the Greek text.

As to where is the best place to listen to the study by Brother Steve, in which he proves full-Preterism won't fly, you should listen to the whole thing, as a dismantling is more involved than a few sound bites or a few verses covered....you have to consider all that's shown there, not just some. As you might know, Brother Steve is expert on this subject, and is a partial Preterist, so you will find some common ground.

And a quick replay to your questions above:

Quote:Did Yeshua lie to his disciples?
No.

Quote:Even to the temple court?

No.

Quote:Was the crucifixion an appropriate and just punishment for a presumptuous would-be prophet?

No, stoning was... But The Son of God, was not delt with according the the Law of Moses, by those who claimed to uphold it, and He was misinterpreted and misunderstood by them, and by many others down to this day, about many things He said, including the timing of his Return to Earth, at the Resurrection and Restoration of ALL things.

Quote:Do you interpret the passages I quoted differently than what I explained?

Yes. I understand what they really mean. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->


Shlama,
Chuck
Go ahead and message me in private Chuck. I'm happy to discuss what I've been learning about fulfillment over the past decade or so.

Brother Steve's entire series is fully 21 hours of audio that, unfortunately, I don't have lots and lots of time to listen to. The first two didn't strike me as an "attack" so to speak on full preterism, but a simple defense of his position, amillenialism. The only mention I recall of full preterism was briefly in the first lecture, in which he described the belief without mentioning it by name and claimed without basis that it was unorthodox or heretical. I'd be surprised to find in one or the rest of his other lessons a thorough systemic rebuttal against full preterism, especially when that doesn't seem to be his intent. He is more concerned, at least in lesson two, with discussing the shortcomings of premillenial dispensationalism. Or is it your opinion that he defends his own position so exhaustively that all others are refuted?

Shlama.
:

Well...If you don't listen to it Brian, you won?t know what he shows there. I'm sure you've spent much more than 21 hours listening to others present the idea of full Preterism to you. Put it on a CD and listen to it bit by bit...But perhaps you like that mistaken idea too much not to truly consider that it could be wrong, so for you it would be a waste of time? It's wrong though Brian, no matter how many decades you have believed it to be true...and it never was taught by The Apostles of The Holy Church that they built, by God's direction. As I said above, The Nicene Creed clearly refutes the concept. Steve deals with the whole ball of wax on the subject of eschatology in a very detailed manner, of which this concept is only a part, but he does take it apart rather well.

But yea...let?s begin to discuss on the sidelines if ya like.

Shlama,
Chuck
The Nicene states, but does not prove, the beliefs of the Christians who made up the council of Nicaea. I believe they were mistaken and this belief is based on the scriptures. I see you have added me on facebook, we will continue the discussion there.

I will continue listening to Mr. Gregg's series on eschatology, at my leisure. I intended to from the beginning but, as often happens to me, I got sidetracked. Nevertheless I ask that during our conversation you don't depend on me being familiar with his particular beliefs. We'll start at a very basic level.
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