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Here are the verses that are in the form l'Marya, as in The Master YHWH Elohim, or simply The Master YHWH in some cases.

Matthew 4:7

Matthew 5:33

Matthew 22:37

Mark 12:30

Luke 1:17

Luke 1:46

Luke 2:38

Luke 4:12

Luke 4:19

Luke 10:27

Acts 9:27

Acts 15:17

Romans 15:11

Ephesians 5:19

Colossians 3:24

Hebrews 8:11

James 3:9

1Peter 3:15

2Peter 3:8


Here are the two verses that have d'alMarya, as in The Master YHWH your Alaha in both cases below.


Matthew 4:10

Luke 4:8


This is all that is shown at Dukhrana.com for these forms of Marya. There may be more forms?


Shlama,
Chuck
PM Sanders, that list actually looks pretty reliable. Thirdwoe just might agree after he double checks everything, thaks to him as well.

Ya know, I used to be a fan of Dave B. and bought some of his work online, mainly cause Ive always longed for a textually/critically perfect Bible, and his Bible codes confirming messages offered me that feeling of safety in my beliefs. (Didnt wanna hear that 1 John 5:7 and the woman in adultery werent real)

But the more you learn about the Bible, you must realize things arent ever that easy, biblical text work is often times messy and theres more gray than just a black and white answer. And you gotta take all of that as a package deal, even though at least I keep on trying and trying to find a perfect answer. After all, he's a perfect God who demands that we too be perfect, isnt he?

Some claim error and contradiction often because of that, but I really think its a test to those who can be superficial, in a scholarly way as opposed to physical, if you know what I mean. The message still remains very clear, irregardless of things like just where exactly "YHWH" may read in a verse, and "master" in another.

What are you just going to ignore the creation of the world through our existence, the powerful laws and messages given by God through his prophets to his people, the beauty of loving one's neighbor as themself, etc. just cause of a few textual disagreements in a text? (He said to them vs And he said unto them)
rungold315 Wrote:PM Sanders, that list actually looks pretty reliable. Thirdwoe just might agree after he double checks everything, thaks to him as well.

Ya know, I used to be a fan of Dave B. and bought some of his work online, mainly cause Ive always longed for a textually/critically perfect Bible, and his Bible codes confirming messages offered me that feeling of safety in my beliefs. (Didnt wanna hear that 1 John 5:7 and the woman in adultery werent real)

But the more you learn about the Bible, you must realize things arent ever that easy, biblical text work is often times messy and theres more gray than just a black and white answer. And you gotta take all of that as a package deal, even though at least I keep on trying and trying to find a perfect answer. After all, he's a perfect God who demands that we too be perfect, isnt he?

Some claim error and contradiction often because of that, but I really think its a test to those who can be superficial, in a scholarly way as opposed to physical, if you know what I mean. The message still remains very clear, irregardless of things like just where exactly "YHWH" may read in a verse, and "master" in another.

What are you just going to ignore the creation of the world through our existence, the powerful laws and messages given by God through his prophets to his people, the beauty of loving one's neighbor as themself, etc. just cause of a few textual disagreements in a text? (He said to them vs And he said unto them)

Actually I have not read too much of his info to be honest. The little I know about him, I believe he holds the position of Peshitto primacy which I disagree with. I apologize if this sounds ignorant, but I really have no interest in the Bible Codes. I did when I was 16 (now 32) but not so much anymore. That and I still feel the Peshitto is not superior to the Peshitta. As to your last post regretting that you only speak English, I want to make sure I do not give the wrong impression. When I was saying I am no expert, that also means I ONLY speak English. I cannot read or speak ANY other language... except maybe Klingon. <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> All my info and knowledge comes from studying many people from here and elsewhere and comparing the words just by sight. For example, I downloaded the Khabouris Codex from Dukhrana.com and in Adobe, I did a simple Find command for MarYah without an exact word match, and with the exception of the word Samaritan which contains the word MarYah and I believe one other instance, I was able to confirm Baucher's list.

Thirdwoe, I apologize. I stated your list looked drastically short. It was shy a few verses but, it only "looked" drastically short. I went through to make my own list before you posted your L'MarYah+ findings, and I was only able to add a few. And it seems there is I believe two other forms, one being: W(V)'MarYah as can be seen in Rev 22:6:

lgeb awhml byhyd am yhwdbel wywxml hkalml rds asydq aybnd atxwrd ahla ayrmw Nryrsw Nnmyhm alm Nylh yl rmaw
AENT 4th: And he said to me: "These words (are) faithful and true. And the Master YHWH, Elohim of the Spirit of the prophets, has sent me, his Messenger, to show his servants the things that must soon occur.

I have a list I made up which is yours plus all the ones I confirmed on my own AND what Mr. Bauscher(sp?) found:
The numbers in brackets are the total occurrences per book, and the x2 by a verse is the word repeated in the same verse. Confirming Mr. Bauscher that there are indeed (unless more are found) 215 occurrences of MarYah.

(edited: see my revised an improved list below)
I decided to go back through my list and next to each verse in ( ) note what word exactly was found where. It turns out there are a total of 6 variances of MarYah meaning Master YHWH in the Renewed Covenant. They are listed below following my revised list along with how often they occur. Also thanks to Paul Younan and his info/suggestion regarding proclitics here:
http://www.peshitta.org/forum/viewtopic....=60#p18440
I have been "technically" less accurate, and instead of typing out the word "D'MarYah" for example,which you will find in the actual text, I have put "de MarYah" for clarification purposes which would be the pronunciation of the word.

[95] MarYah
[86] "de Marya" (of MarYah)
[19] "al Marya" (to/unto/towards MarYah)
[11] "be Marya" (in/by MarYah)
[2] "aw Marya" (and MarYah)
[2] "de al Marya" (that towards* MarYah)
*see the above post by Paul

[20]
Matthew 1:20 (de MarYah)
Matthew 1:22 (MarYah)
Matthew 1:24 (de MarYah)
Matthew 2:13 (de MarYah)
Matthew 2:15 (MarYah)
Matthew 2:19 (de MarYah)
Matthew 3:3 (de MarYah)
Matthew 4:7 (al MarYah)
Matthew 4:10 (de al MarYah)
Matthew 5:33 (al MarYah)
Matthew 12:4 (de MarYah)
Matthew 21:9 (de MarYah)
Matthew 21:42 (MarYah)
Matthew 22:37 (al MarYah)
Matthew 22:43 (MarYah)
Matthew 22:44 (MarYah)
Matthew 22:45 (MarYah)
Matthew 23:39 (de MarYah)
Matthew 27:10 (MarYah)
Matthew 28:2 (de MarYah)

[10]
Mark 1:3 (de MarYah)
Mark 2:26 (de MarYah)
Mark 5:19 (MarYah)
Mark 11:9 (de MarYah)
Mark 12:11 (MarYah)
Mark 12:29 x 2 (MarYah)
Mark 12:30 (al MarYah)
Mark 12:36 (MarYah)
Mark 13:20 (MarYah)

[37]
Luke 1:6 (de MarYah)
Luke 1:9 (de MarYah)
Luke 1:11 (de MarYah)
Luke 1:15 (MarYah)
Luke 1:16 (MarYah)
Luke 1:17 (al MarYah)
Luke 1:25 (MarYah)
Luke 1:32 (MarYah)
Luke 1:38 (de MarYah)
Luke 1:45 (MarYah)
Luke 1:46 (al MarYah)
Luke 1:66 (de MarYah)
Luke 1:68 (MarYah)
Luke 1:76 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:9 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:11 (MarYah)
Luke 2:15 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:22 (MarYah)
Luke 2:23 x2 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:24 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:26 (de MarYah)
Luke 2:38 (al MarYah)
Luke 2:39 (de MarYah)
Luke 3:4 (de MarYah)
Luke 4:8 (de al MarYah)
Luke 4:12 (al MarYah)
Luke 4:18 (de MarYah)
Luke 4:19 (al MarYah)
Luke 5:17 (de MarYah)
Luke 6:4 (de MarYah)
Luke 10:27 (al MarYah)
Luke 13:35 (de MarYah)
Luke 17:29 (MarYah)
Luke 19:38 (de MarYah)
Luke 20:37 (MarYah)
Luke 20:42 (MarYah)

[4]
John 1:23 (de MarYah)
John 8:11 (MarYah)
John 12:13 (de MarYah)
John 12:38 (de MarYah)

[46]
Acts 1:24 (MarYah)
Acts 2:20 (de MarYah)
Acts 2:21 (de MarYah)
Acts 2:34 (MarYah)
Acts 2:36 (de MarYah)
Acts 2:38 (de MarYah)
Acts 3:19 (de MarYah)
Acts 3:22 (MarYah)
Acts 4:24 (MarYah)
Acts 4:26 (MarYah)
Acts 4:29 (MarYah)
Acts 5:9 (de MarYah)
Acts 5:14 (be MarYah)
Acts 5:19 (de MarYah)
Acts 6:3 (de MarYah)
Acts 7:30 (de MarYah)
Acts 7:31 (MarYah)
Acts 7:33 (MarYah)
Acts 7:37 (MarYah)
Acts 7:49 (MarYah)
Acts 8:26 (de MarYah)
Acts 8:39 (de MarYah)
Acts 9:10 (aw MarYah)
Acts 9:15 (MarYah)
Acts 9:27 (al MarYah)
Acts 10:36 (MarYah)
Acts 11:21 x2 (MarYah & de MarYah)
Acts 12:7 (de MarYah)
Acts 12:11 (de MarYah)
Acts 12:17 (MarYah)
Acts 12:23 (de MarYah)
Acts 13:10 (de MarYah)
Acts 13:11 (de MarYah)
Acts 13:12 (de MarYah)
Acts 13:49 (de MarYah)
Acts 14:3 (MarYah)
Acts 14:25 (de MarYah)
Acts 14:26 (de MarYah)
Acts 15:17 x2 (MarYah & al MarYah)
Acts 16:32 (de MarYah)
Acts 18:9 (MarYah)
Acts 18:25 (de MarYah)
Acts 18:26 (de MarYah)
Acts 19:10 (de MarYah)

[9]
Romans 9:28 (MarYah)
Romans 9:29 (MarYah)
Romans 10:12 (MarYah)
Romans 10:13 (de MarYah)
Romans 11:34 (de MarYah)
Romans 14:9 (MarYah)
Romans 14:11 (MarYah)
Romans 14:14 (be MarYah)
Romans 15:11 (al MarYah)

[21]
1Corinthians 1:31 (be MarYah)
1Corinthians 2:16 (de MarYah)
1Corinthians 3:5 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 3:20 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 4:4 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 4:5 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 4:17 (be MarYah)
1Corinthians 4:19 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 7:17 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 8:6 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 10:26 (de MarYah)
1Corinthians 11:27 x2 (de MarYah)
1Corinthians 11:29 (de MarYah)
1Corinthians 12:3 (de MarYah)
1Corinthians 12:5 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 14:21 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 15:47 (MarYah)
1Corinthians 15:58 x2 (be MarYah & de MarYah)
1Corinthians 16:10 (de MarYah)

[10]
2Corinthians 2:12 (be MarYah)
2Corinthians 3:16 (MarYah)
2Corinthians 3:17 x2 (de MarYah & MarYah)
2Corinthians 3:18 x2 (MarYah & de MarYah)
2Corinthians 6:17 (MarYah)
2Corinthians 6:18 (MarYah)
2Corinthians 10:17 (be MarYah)
2Corinthians 10:18 (de MarYah)

[4]
Ephesians 2:21 (be MarYah)
Ephesians 4:5 (MarYah)
Ephesians 4:17 (be MarYah)
Ephesians 5:19 (al MarYah)

[2]
Philippians 2:11 (de MarYah)
Philippians 2:29 (be MarYah)

[3]
Colossians 3:22 (de MarYah)
Colossians 3:24 (al MarYah)
Colossians 4:7 (be MarYah)

[1]
2Thessalonians 3:3 (MarYah)

[2]
2Timothy 2:19 x2 (de MarYah & MarYah)

[11]
Hebrews 6:3 (MarYah)
Hebrews 7:21 (MarYah)
Hebrews 8:8 (MarYah)
Hebrews 8:9 (MarYah)
Hebrews 8:10 (MarYah)
Hebrews 8:11 (al MarYah)
Hebrews 10:16 (MarYah)
Hebrews 10:30 (MarYah)
Hebrews 12:5 (de MarYah)
Hebrews 12:6 (MarYah)
Hebrews 13:5 (MarYah)

[9]
James 1:7 (MarYah)
James 3:9 (al MarYah)
James 4:10 (MarYah)
James 4:15 (MarYah)
James 5:4 (de MarYah)
James 5:7 (de MarYah)
James 5:10 (de MarYah)
James 5:11 x2 (MarYah)

[4]
1Peter 2:3 (MarYah)
1Peter 3:12 x2 (de MarYah)
1Peter 3:15 (al MarYah)

[6]
2Peter 2:9 (MarYah)
2Peter 2:11 (MarYah)
2Peter 3:8 (al MarYah)
2Peter 3:9 (MarYah)
2Peter 3:10 (de MarYah)
2Peter 3:15 (de MarYah)

[2]
Jude 1:9 (MarYah)
Jude 1:14 (MarYah)

[14]
Revelation 1:8 (MarYah)
Revelation 4:8 (MarYah)
Revelation 6:10 (MarYah)
Revelation 11:17 (MarYah)
Revelation 14:10 (de MarYah)
Revelation 15:3 (MarYah)
Revelation 15:4 (MarYah)
Revelation 16:7 (MarYah)
Revelation 18:8 (MarYah)
Revelation 19:6 (MarYah)
Revelation 21:22 (MarYah)
Revelation 22:5 (de MarYah)
Revelation 22:6 (aw MarYah)
Revelation 22:20 (MarYah)
This is Awesome Bros...thanks for pointing all this out and adding to the finds. I'll be doing some serious study on these.

Also, I was talking (email) with Dave Bauscher today about something that touches on this matter...I'll show what he said in response below, which I thought was interesting. I too have a number of Dave's editions, but have learned over time that he has some strange and wrong ideas/doctrines. Some very serious... and I have seen that his personal interpretations of these things have crept into his translation, which is sadly all too easy to do, as is seen with other translations.

I don't believe, as he does, that the 1905/20 UBS crittical text, which has the Western 5 and the Western readings of the Peshitto in its edition, is the most ancient form of The Peshitta...that being the Eastern Text. Nor that it is an "inspired" text in its verbage...I have proven to myself, through comparing its readings, with that of the early Church fathers/teachers, that the Eastern Text is as close to the Original Aramaic Scriptures that was given to the Church of the East by The Apostles as can be found/read today. But as is pointed out above, THE MESSAGE is loud and clear in both texts...and also in the Greek and Latin versions. I believe that The Message is Inspired, and has been presurved by God, but that on word and letter level, because men wrote down the words and copied them through the centuries, no one manuscript is going to be without some error of transmission. If we had each of the Autographs to look at, perhaps we would see no errors at all, but even then, its the Message that really matters, for you can have a perfect text, but have an error in the Message, if God was not the source of what is relayed.

Anyway, here is the email...

"You are right about Hebrews 13:6 having "Mari" instead of "Marya", which is found in Ps. 118:6 in Peshitta; "Yehovah" occurs in the Hebrew mss. There are other places where "Mari" apparently is used for "Marya". This may explain the difference between Luke 20:44 and Mat. 22:45. When "Mari" is used as direct address- for example, Shimei said to David the King, "May your servant find grace in the sight of my Lord", it may refer to a human being. Here "Mari" is referring to King David, as it is direct address to a mortal man.In direct address to God, of course, it is a title for God.

If it is direct address to God, then, of course, it is a reference to The Deity, and the context will determine this.

But when "Mari" is not direct address, but a third person reference to no known human, it refers to God.

This is why "Mari" and "Marya" seem to be equivalent terms in Luke 20:43 & Mat. 22:44 -"Marya said to Mari, sit at my right until..." If David called Him, Marya, how is He his son?" Notice, "Mari" is not a direct address in Psalm 110:1; it is an indirect reference to a third person, and since King David writes this, it is referring to a Person higher in authority than a King. Yeshua said that "Mari" is "Marya" in this instance. Ps. 110:5 confirms this as there we read "Marya at your right hand will defeat kings...", showing that the One seated at Marya's right is named Marya.It also explains why Luke's account says Messiah is called "Mari" whereas Matthew's account syas He is "Marya". In this case of Psalm 110:1, both terms are equivalent.

Matthew's account makes it plain that "Mari" in Psalm 110:1 is the same as "Marya" in that particular usage, which agrees with what I outlined above.

I hope that makes sense."

Dave
Quote:Proclitics go in front of the word. So you have D' (of) and L' (to) and W' (and). Sometimes the Proclitics are combined, so you get d'l' in front of the word.

Thanks for that info Shamasha Paul, are those the only things "of" "to" & "and" that D' L' & W' can mean?

And what about the Proclitics B' and DL' in the other occurances of MarYah, what do/can they mean?

Shlama,
Chuck
Thirdwoe Wrote:
Quote:Proclitics go in front of the word. So you have D' (of) and L' (to) and W' (and). Sometimes the Proclitics are combined, so you get d'l' in front of the word.

Thanks for that info Shamasha Paul, are those the only things "of" "to" & "and" that D' L' & W' can mean?

And what about the Proclitics B' and DL' in the other occurances of MarYah, what do/can they mean?

Shlama,
Chuck

Shlama Akhi Chuck.

Yes, B' is perhaps the most common proclitic. It usually translates to "in/by".

So you see these combined proclitics at times. When you do, it's usually best to treat them individually. For example, the one you mention d'l' - when prepended to Maryah, would mean "that (d') unto (l')".

When pronounced, it sounds like "dal-Mar-Yah"...

"That unto The LORD you should prostrate" is a sentence which would use his sort of combined proclitic. The hard part to visualize is that the d proclitic is pointing to the noun, and the l proclitic is pointing to the verb. All while both are prepended to the noun.

Hope that made sense.
Shlama,


so the tally is:

192 counts for the Eastern PESHITTA

215 counts for the Western PESHITTO

for what it is worth! <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Burning one Wrote:Shlama,


so the tally is:

192 counts for the Eastern PESHITTA

215 counts for the Western PESHITTO

for what it is worth! <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

If you are referring to how many times MarYah occurs in both, I count 193 for Pashitta not 192... or am I overlooking a verse that is not in the Pashitta?
PM Saunders Wrote:
Burning one Wrote:Shlama,


so the tally is:

192 counts for the Eastern PESHITTA

215 counts for the Western PESHITTO

for what it is worth! <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

If you are referring to how many times MarYah occurs in both, I count 193 for Pashitta not 192... or am I overlooking a verse that is not in the Pashitta?


Shlama,

i'm still getting 192 -- are you perhaps counting the appearance in John 8, which is not in the Peshitta?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Burning one Wrote:
PM Saunders Wrote:
Burning one Wrote:Shlama,


so the tally is:

192 counts for the Eastern PESHITTA

215 counts for the Western PESHITTO

for what it is worth! <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

If you are referring to how many times MarYah occurs in both, I count 193 for Pashitta not 192... or am I overlooking a verse that is not in the Pashitta?


Shlama,

i'm still getting 192 -- are you perhaps counting the appearance in John 8, which is not in the Peshitta?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy

That answered my question. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->
I am still learning and I had overlooked that. Thank you.
Hi Jeremy,

The over 200 ocurrances are in the Peshitta, including John 8 and the 5 non-Eastern recognized books.
distazo Wrote:Hi Jeremy,

The over 200 ocurrances are in the Peshitta, including John 8 and the 5 non-Eastern recognized books.

I apologize for butting in here but if I am not mistaken, the Peshitta does not include John 8 + 2Peter, 2 & 3 John, Jude and Revelation. Taking that into consideration and looking at my list, Jeremy would be correct that the PeshittA in fact only has 192 occurrences of MarYah with variants, and the PeshittO has 215. I realize when I began posting in this thread, I may have stated that the 215 occurrences were in the Peshitta and that would have been inaccurate. My info was coming from the Khabouris Codex, Dave Bauscher and the AENT 4th edition. Even though I do know better, I often make a common mistake of referring to the 27 books of the PeshittO Renewed Covenant as the Peshitta when this is not accurate. Someone please correct me if I am wrong concerning the difference between the PeshittA/O. (I capitalize the last letter through the post for my own peace of mind in differentiating the two.)

On the other hand, if you agree with this, perhaps I have misunderstood the purpose of your post in which case I apologize for sticking my nose in. I just was under the impression this post was meant to correct Jeremy when no correction was necessary... as far as I can tell.
distazo Wrote:Hi Jeremy,

The over 200 ocurrances are in the Peshitta, including John 8 and the 5 non-Eastern recognized books.


Shlama akhi,

I was making a distinction between the Eastern and Western texts, which are different in count. Labeling both "Peshitta" can be confusing when they aren't identical texts. For purposes of clarity I distinguished between the two.

Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
TWO APPROACHES IN UNDERSTANDING SCRIPTURE

FIRST: One goes to the Writings with an open, unbiased attitude, free of denominational slants or teachings, or previous impressions. This is called Exegesis (direct analysis or interpretation of Scripture). Allowing the Word to directly speak to form a solid foundation through personal study. Listening to other men teach us what Scripture says is fine also, as long as we test everything we hear, being careful how we listen, as the assembly at Berea did (see: Acts 17:10,11).

SECOND: (the wrong approach) -- One goes to the Writings to prove something they already believe, finding sentences which hint at the idea. This is called Eisegesis (analyzing from one' own preconceived ideas). In these cases the text is not directly describing or teaching the concept they are trying to prove, but rather the words are extracted and hunted-down, to "prove" what they believe. This is how men "twist" or "spin" the Words of Scripture, especially the letters of Shawul [Saul ] (a.k.a. - Powlos [ Paul ]): ". . . as also our beloved brother Powlos wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable TWIST (spin) to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch; lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless." - {2 Kafe [Peter] 3:15-17}


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