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I Galatians chapter 1 and 1 Corinthians 6 (and other places I'm sure) The peshitta reads "our Lord" whilst the greek texts read "the Lord".
I think this is right , though I stand to be corrected.
If all these references are to Jesus then I think "our Lord" makes more sense, possibly. Especially in the light of psalm 110.

The Lord said to my Lord.....

Any thoughts anyone?
Hi, though unfortunatly don?t know Aramaic, but also found the "our Lord" / "the Lord" variation between Aramaic and Greek when reading the Gospel texts according to peshitta.org English translations. So also to me "our Lord" seems to be more "authentical", as if its told by some one, who had been there with "our Lord". It?s just my impression.
Or is it grammatical question, that in Aramaic there always would have to be a personal pronoun suffix with a noune? That I don?t know.

Thanks for putting this question here.

Dani
The Peshitta is clearly richer in this respect. Though the form 'our master' is retained in many places in the Greek:
  • 2 times in Acts
  • 13 verses in Romans
  • 10 verses in 1Corinthians
  • 3 verses in 2Corinthians
  • 3 verses in Galatians
  • 6 verses in Ephesians
  • 1 verse in Philippians
  • 1 verse in Colossians
  • 7 verses in 1Thessalonians
  • 8 verses in 2Thessalonians
  • 5 verses in 1Timothy
  • 2 verses in 2Timothy
  • 1 verse in Philemon
  • 2 verses in Hebrews
  • 1 verse in James
  • 1 verse in 1Peter
  • 7 verses in 2Peter
  • 3 verses in Jude
  • 3 verses in Revelation
  • 66 verses in Eastern canon
  • 79 verses total
Take that total in light of the 251 verses in which it appears in the Peshitta text. (17 verses in the 'Western Five.')
Aaron S Wrote:The Peshitta is clearly richer in this respect. Though the form 'our master' is retained in many places in the GreekSmile

Aaron, can you discern any particular pattern between paul using "the lord" and "our lord"?
As is the established manner of referring to Yeshua, it is usually found in the phrase 'our Master Yeshua the Anointed', or a variant thereof. Are you asking about his usage in Greek or Aramaic?
Aaron S Wrote:As is the established manner of referring to Yeshua, it is usually found in the phrase 'our Master Yeshua the Anointed', or a variant thereof. Are you asking about his usage in Greek or Aramaic?

I suppose Aramaic though if you'd noticed anything re the greek that would interesting.
The peshitta (Murdocks tr) of 1 Corinthians 7
12 And to the rest, say I,- I, not my Lord,-that if there be a brother, who hath a wife that believeth not, and she is disposed to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
13 And that woman, who hath a husband that believeth not, and he is disposed to dwell with her let her not forsake her husband.
14 For the husband who believeth not, is sanctified by the wife that believeth; and the wife who believeth not, is sanctified by the husband that believeth: otherwise their children would be impure; but now are they pure.
15 But if the unbeliever separateth, let him separate: A brother or sister is not in bondage in such cases: it is to peace, God hath called us.
16 For how knowest thou, O wife, whether thou wilt procure life to thy husband? Or, thou husband, knowest thou, whether thou wilt procure life to thy wife?
17 Every one, however, as the Lord hath distributed to him, and every one as God hath called him, so let him walk. And also thus I enjoin upon all the churches.
18 Is a circumcised person called, let him not revert to uncircumcision: and if one uncircumcised be called, let him not become circumcised.
19 For circumcision is nothing, neither is uncircumcision; but the keeping of God's commands.
20 Let every one continue in the vocation, in which he was called.
21 If thou wert called, being a servant; let it not trouble thee. But if thou canst be made free, choose it rather than to serve.
22 For he that is called by our Lord, being a servant, is God's freedman: likewise, he that is called, being a free man, is the Messiah's servant.
23 Ye are bought with a price; become not the servants of men.
24 Let every one, my Brethren, continue with God, in whatever [state] he was called.
25 And concerning virginity, I have no precept from God; but I give counsels as a man who hath obtained mercy from God to be a believer.
26 And I think this is suitable, on account of the necessity of the times; it is advantageous for a man to remain as he is.
27 Art thou bound to a wife ? Seek not a release. Art thou free from a wife ? Seek not a wife.
28 But if thou takest a wife, thou sinnest not. And if a maiden is given to a husband, she sinneth not. But they who are such, will have trouble in the body: but I am forbearing to you.
29 And this I say, my Brethren, that the time to come is short; so that they who have wives, should be as if they had none;
30 and they who weep, as if they wept not; and they who rejoice, as if they rejoiced not; and they who buy, as if they acquired not;
31 and those occupied with this world, not going beyond the just using: for the fashion of this world is passing away.
32 And therefore I wish you to be without solicitude. For he who hath not a wife, considereth the thing of his Lord, how he may please his Lord. 33 And he who hath a wife, is anxious about the world, how he may please his wife.
34 There is a difference also between a wife and a maiden. She who is without a husband, thinketh of things pertaining to her Lord, that she may be holy in her body and in her spirit. But she who hath a husband, thinketh of things pertaining to the world, how she may please her husband. 35 And this I say for your advantage; I am not laying a snare for you; but that ye may be faithful towards your Lord, in a suitable manner, while not minding worldly things.

Compare this with the NIV (which I presume mirrors the greek

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord ): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?
17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God?s commands is what counts. 20 Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.
21 Were you a slave when you were called? Don?t let it trouble you?although if you can gain your freedom, do so. 22 For the one who was a slave when called to faith in the Lord is the Lord?s freed person; similarly, the one who was free when called is Christ?s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of human beings. 24 Brothers and sisters, each person, as responsible to God, should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

25 Now about virgins: I have no command from the Lord, but I give a judgment as one who by the Lord?s mercy is trustworthy. 26 Because of the present crisis, I think that it is good for a man to remain as he is. 27 Are you pledged to a woman? Do not seek to be released. Are you free from such a commitment? Do not look for a wife. 28 But if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. But those who marry will face many troubles in this life, and I want to spare you this.
29 What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not; 30 those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31 those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away.

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord?s affairs?how he can please the Lord. 33 But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world?how he can please his wife? 34 and his interests are divided. An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord?s affairs: Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit. But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world?how she can please her husband. 35 I am saying this for your own good, not to restrict you, but that you may live in a right way in undivided devotion to the Lord.

Am I right in saying that the peshitta distinguishes between my/our/your Lord (Jesus), and the lord (yahweh)
This would be similar to Psalm 110.

The lord (yahweh) said to my lord (christ/annointed one )

The greek seems to just use the lord, not only here but elsewhere, as indicated by the initial verses I cited.
this makes it unclear at times.
Any thoughts?
Looking further into this we find yet more evidence of the priority of the peshitta.

1. Prior to the NT (and in the LXX) we find that the Lord is a reference to God, whilst something like my Lord, is not. It makes things very clear and easy to understand. Pslam 110 is a good example.

The lord (yahweh) said to my lord .

2. The peshitta continues this tradition. It never ( I dont think) uses the Lord to refer to Jesus, but it does use my Lord and our Lord.

3. In the greek NT this distinction is blurred, making things unclear at times. In 1 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians our/my Lord becomes the Lord when it is referring to Jesus. It is unclear in the GNT of Pauls epistles whether it refers to Jesus or god in some instances. Sloppy work from the greek translator.

In Luke and John, Jesus becomes The Lord.

Luke 7:13 GNT When the Lord saw her, he had compassion for her and said to her, "Do not weep."

John 6:23 GNT
Then some boats from Tiberias came near the place where they had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks.

Both these instances have Jesus and not the Lord in the peshitta.
So in summary. When we see the Lord it always refers to God, and when we see my Lord or our Lord is does not refer to God but it is being used in the more generic sense.
The only exception to this is where the translators of the Greek NT have used the Lord to refer to Jesus, on some occasions.

Try reading the greek (or an english translation of the greek) of 1 Corinthians (especially chapter 6,7 and 11). The peshitta is perfectly clear because it uses the well know forms.

The greek becomes confusing because it uses the Lord for Jesus, at times and at other times it uses my Lord or our Lord.
Y'shua is YHWH. God Himself, being manifested in and through His Word, in the Person of His Son. God has made it so.

?Truly know therefore, the whole house of Israel, that MarYah and The Messiah, Elohim has made this Y'shua that you crucified.?
Thirdwoe Wrote:Y'shua is YHWH. God Himself, being manifested in and through His Word, in the Person of His Son. God has made it so.

?Truly know therefore, the whole house of Israel, that MarYah and The Messiah, Elohim has made this Y'shua that you crucified.?

Well, it was not the purpose of my post to argue for that or against that. Merely to point out that the greek translators (or later scribes) changed their texts. Perhaps to reflect such an idea that they held.
It is possibly an indication of how a translator might alter a text to reflect his/her beliefs. maybe consciously, maybe unconsciously.
I see that both the Hebrew & Aramaic Scriptures show that Y'shua The Messiah, is indeed YHWH The Word, manifested in humanity, much more clearly than the Greek texts do.

There is no argument with God about this matter either, as He has revealed to us, in The Scriptures, that His Word is the very expression of Himself to His creation, and declairing that The Word became flesh/human in the Person of Y'shua...The Word, is both with and is GOD.... as God, through the Apostle John teaches us.

When Apostle Thomas said "My Lord and my God" he was not just using a shocked expression, as we might use today, when overwhelmed by something...he was expressing the revelation he had just recieved from God, as to whom The Messiah truly was/is.
The Targums (eg of Jonathan) shows many times that JHWH is given as 'Memra' (The word). It says that 'the word of God' talked with Moses.
It was The Word of God who talked to Moses..and everyone else who ever had the honor of having a face to face encounter with GOD.

This Scripture confims this. "No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten of God, who is in the bosom of The Father, He has declared Him.? John 1:18

The Word of God, who reveals The Father, is the Visable image of the Invisable GOD. In which and through which, He speaks and has spoken to His creation.
As mentioned th PNT never uses "the Lord" to refer to Jesus. As in the hebrew bible the term "the lord" is reserved for yahweh. Those who translated it into greek mixed this distiction up in many places. I thessalonians contains some good examples.
I Thess 1:10 mentions that they are waiting on Jesus.

10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead?Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

2:19 says the same thing.

19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes?

3:13 says the same.

13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

4:14 again has Jesus coming. (though god brings him)

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Up till now the greek and the peshitta agree but the next in the next few verses the greek translator got confused and began to call Jesus "the Lord" instead of "our lord" (which the peshitta has).
Paul has just told us several times that it is Jesus who is coming, so it should read "our lord" in the following passage.

15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

In all the places just underlined the PNT has our lord.

All the NT authors follow the lead from the Hebrew bible and only use "the lord" for yahweh
judge Wrote:As mentioned th PNT never uses "the Lord" to refer to Jesus. As in the hebrew bible the term "the lord" is reserved for yahweh. Those who translated it into greek mixed this distiction up in many places. I thessalonians contains some good examples.
I Thess 1:10 mentions that they are waiting on Jesus.

10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead?Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

2:19 says the same thing.

19 For what is our hope, our joy, or the crown in which we will glory in the presence of our Lord Jesus when he comes?

3:13 says the same.

13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

4:14 again has Jesus coming. (though god brings him)

14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Up till now the greek and the peshitta agree but the next in the next few verses the greek translator got confused and began to call Jesus "the Lord" instead of "our lord" (which the peshitta has).
Paul has just told us several times that it is Jesus who is coming, so it should read "our lord" in the following passage.

15 According to the Lord?s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

In all the places just underlined the PNT has our lord.

All the NT authors follow the lead from the Hebrew bible and only use "the lord" for yahweh


Shlama Akhi Judge:
Nice to see you back after a short hiatus. Consider the way I Corinthians 12:3 is phrased.

"d'Maryeh hu Yeshua"

"dalet-mem-resh-yud-alef.....heh-vav.....Yud-shin-vav-ayin", "that LORD he (is) Yeshua".

Shlama,
Stephen
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