Peshitta Forum

Full Version: Gospel of John shows our Lord to be Mary's only child
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3
It's hard to explain, but in Semitic speech the word "until" has a focus on the past, not necessarily on the future. There is lacking an implied positive action afterward.
Isn't it possible that Yeshua gave John the responsiblity of caring for his mother because John would never suffer martyrdom and die before Mary's death?
From what I know of, James and John were cousins of Yeshua Meshikha (on Mother's side). James and John were the sons of Shalom (Sister or Cousin of Yeshua Meshikha's mother Maryam).
Yuchanan was the most beloved apostle of Yeshu. While his presumed halve-brothers James, were not quite convinced.

Looking at the saying where Yeshu said: Matthew 12:47, 48 "Who are my mother, brothers? Look! My Mother and brothers..."

I suppose that Yeshu asked Yuchanan to take care of Maryam because he thought that Yuchanan would be most suited for that. It does not necesarily mean that Maryam must have been virgin until her death wich is too far fetched to conclude just because he asked Yuchanan.
No one ever heard of the Desposyni? Of course Mary had kids, why wouldn't she? Did she stop being human when she gave birth to Jesus? Why would Gabriel tell Joseph to be with her then?
These are the brothers of Jesus that are listed in Gospels - Joses, Jude, James the less, and Simon. As you know, they are not actually "Brothers." Aramaic word for Brother can also mean Cousin. They (Joses, Jude, James the less, Simon) are the sons of Qalyopa (Brother of Joseph) and Maryam (another Mary). On Mother's side of Jesus, we have James and John (the sons of Zebedee and Salome). If Maryam had children other than Jesus, then don't you think Gospels would have mentioned it?

Its true that John was the favorite disciple of Jesus. That is certainly a major reason. But I also thought that Jesus told John to look after Maryam, because John was a relative of Jesus. Isn't it important in Aramaic tradition that a close relative must look after his/her things if he/she dies? It must also be noted that this is the only time (John 19:25) where Salome is revealed as Sister/Cousin of Maryam (Mother of Jesus).
konway87 Wrote:These are the brothers of Jesus that are listed in Gospels - Joses, Jude, James the less, and Simon. As you know, they are not actually "Brothers." Aramaic word for Brother can also mean Cousin. They (Joses, Jude, James the less, Simon) are the sons of Qalyopa (Brother of Joseph) and Maryam (another Mary). On Mother's side of Jesus, we have James and John (the sons of Zebedee and Salome). If Maryam had children other than Jesus, then don't you think Gospels would have mentioned it?

Hoi Kon <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> I see a circle of reasoning;

- Brother also can mean cousin.
- If he had brothers, the bible would meantion it it mentions the cousins.

Well it depends. Since it mentions the 'cousins' it also mentions the 'brothers' <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Last but not least; okey, they were cousins if you wish; but still; What scripture wold maryam have to fullfill to stay a virgin? I'd say: if she were, the scripture would have it! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

(If I were Jawsef, I would have gone mad at God for taking the M out of the marriage.)
I know what you mean. I guess this subject depends upon the beliefs of each person. Since Gospels don't mention it, I don't think Mary had other children. But this belief only applies to myself, because its a personal belief. I myself like to stay completely faithful to the Gospel. I feel that if I believe Mary had other children, then its like adding Pericope de adultera to the Gospels.
konway87 Wrote:These are the brothers of Jesus that are listed in Gospels - Joses, Jude, James the less, and Simon. As you know, they are not actually "Brothers." Aramaic word for Brother can also mean Cousin. They (Joses, Jude, James the less, Simon) are the sons of Qalyopa (Brother of Joseph) and Maryam (another Mary). On Mother's side of Jesus, we have James and John (the sons of Zebedee and Salome). If Maryam had children other than Jesus, then don't you think Gospels would have mentioned it?

Its true that John was the favorite disciple of Jesus. That is certainly a major reason. But I also thought that Jesus told John to look after Maryam, because John was a relative of Jesus. Isn't it important in Aramaic tradition that a close relative must look after his/her things if he/she dies? It must also be noted that this is the only time (John 19:25) where Salome is revealed as Sister/Cousin of Maryam (Mother of Jesus).
First off, whether or not John actually was the beloved disciple is a matter of opinion itself. i am not saying he wasn't (i think he was), i am just saying that i wouldn't base my argument on disputed facts without at least a basic apologetic compass. There are many that suppose the beloved to be one of the "brothers". i understand a brother should take care of the mother according to tradition, but if what happened was nothing special and simple traditional behaviour, then why waste scripture on it? After all, Jesus never tried to stay in line. It could have been Jesus regarded John more qualified (as he was more his brother than his real brothers, check Mt. 12:50, or as he was closer to him), or his brothers being otherwise occupied, or just because he liked the beloved disciple, or whatever. It also seems that as long as Jesus was alive he fully had the right to entrust whomever he wants with the care of his mother.

The "cousins" you mentionned may in fact be cousins, but the primary meaning of "brother" is "brother", the secondary meaning "cousin" should only be applied if there is a reason to doubt the primary meaning applies (and assuming one possible meaning the only possibility is a sure source of false doctrine, semantics 101 mind you). In your case, that is the family tree fragment which you provided. Unfortunately, that information is not part of the Bible, and immediately one must wonder why did the Bible not mention these rather important, or at least interesting facts, and where did they come from. i do not trust your family tree, especially in the light of the history of the aforementionned Desposyni (relatives of the human nature of Christ, e.g. descendants of his half brothers), which were hunted and killed by the roman faith. It is only logical to conclude that the enemies of the Desposyni had an interest to claim that Jesus had no relatives, or half brothers, and that the Desposyni are frauds. That is why the RC (and some orthodox churches) are so firmly standing on Mary's eternal virginity and such.

konway87 Wrote:I know what you mean. I guess this subject depends upon the beliefs of each person. Since Gospels don't mention it, I don't think Mary had other children. But this belief only applies to myself, because its a personal belief. I myself like to stay completely faithful to the Gospel. I feel that if I believe Mary had other children, then its like adding Pericope de adultera to the Gospels.
What the Bible does mention is this:
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
It is no proof, but a indication: Why would Mary be with Jesus' cousins and demand to speak with him? It makes much more sense if they were his brothers.

Edit: i totally forgot to make my point here: If this means "cousin", did Jesus also mean "cousin" in vs. 48-50? that would have major implications,asthat would mean wherever the NT says we are his siblings, it actually means cousins. Are you sure about this? Maybe when the Bible says God is our father it actually meant Grandfather? :-)

Mat 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Luk 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli,
This, however, is abundantly clear: Joseph was Mary's husband. That kind of relationship never set any boundaries on sexual intercourse. In fact, the Angel encouraged Joseph to take Mary to be his wife. If Joseph was to keep away from her, shouldn't he have gotten a memo? After all, at the foundation the jewish marriage is pretty much a sexual contract. Jesus was still considered to be Joseph's son at 30 years, supporting that their relationship never made anyone think Joseph was the eunuchical caretaker of the "holy mother of God" or anything other than a regular husband.

From a biblical viewpoint, i certainly believe the angel's words promoting marriage are a heavier proof than impropable semantics based on the fictional family tree of Jesus' extended family.

i do believe she was a virgin before she begat Christ, but i also think this was primarily to underline that he was God's Son (and not Joseph's), and God could as well have used a married woman. After all, he is not bound by some people's fictional rules for how incarnation has to transpire. He can do it any way he likes.

If he had brothers, the Bible would say so. It does. If Joseph was Mary's real husband, it'd say so. It does.
Hello Andrej,
I guess I have to explain a bit. I will start from here. Let me take KJV so that you can also read the verse.

John 19:25 - "Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene."

Here is the link - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/joh019.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/joh019.htm</a><!-- m -->

John 19:25 shows that there was another Mary who is the wife of Cleophas. Cleopas is Qalyopa in Peshitta.

Mark 15:40 - "There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;"

Note "Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses." if this was the same Mary who gave birth to Jesus Christ, then Mark would have mentioned it."

Here is the link where you can read the verse - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mar015.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mar015.htm</a><!-- m -->

Matthew 27:56 - "Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedees children."

Here is the link - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mat027.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mat027.htm</a><!-- m -->

Matthew 28:1 - "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre."

We see "the other Mary." This is also another evidence to prove that there was another Mary.

In Mark 15:47 - "And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid." So it was the other Mary along with Mary Magdalene who saw the tomb where Jesus was laid.

Here is the link to this verse (Mark 15:47) - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mar015.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/mar015.htm</a><!-- m -->

Now let me take Peshitta (Paul Younan's Interlinear Translation) of Matthew 10: 2-4.

Here is the verse - "Now of the twelve apostles, their names are these: The first [is] Shimon, who is called Keepa, and Andreous his brother, and Yaqob the son of Zawdee, and Yokhanan his brother, and Pileepos and Bar-Tulmay, and Tooma, and Mattai the tax-collector, and Yaqub the son of Khalpai, Lewi who is called Taddi. And Shimon the Canaanite, and Yehuda Skaryota, he that betrayed him."

We all know that Lewi (also known as Taddi) is also called Yehuda (Jude or Judas in English).

John 14:22 - "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?"

Check this link for this verse - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/joh014.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/joh014.htm</a><!-- m -->

Lewi is also the son of Khalpai (Alphaeus in English). Let me take Mark 2:14 (Paul Younan's Interlinear Translation)- "And while passing by, he saw Lewi, the son of Khalpai, who was sitting at the custom house, and said to him, Come follow me; and he arose, went, [and] followed him." That means Yaqob and Lewi are brothers. This verse shows that the father of Yaqob (James) and Yehuda (Judas or Jude) is Khalpai. Not Joseph.

And now let me take Matthew 13:55 - "Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?"

Since we know that Khalpai and other Mary is the mother of James, Joses, and Judas, then we can conclude that they are cousins of Jesus. And Khalpai may have been another name for Qalyopa. Just like Lewi and Taddi for Yehuda (Lebbaeus and Thaddeus for Judas). As for Simon, I will explain that later. I want to explain more. But the post is getting too long. So I will explain more after your reply.
Very interesting in deed. i will check this out soon.
what about luke 2- 7, where it saids that jesus is mary's first born son?
I agree with Andrew Gabriel Roth on this one.
Hello Sean,
Paul Younan explained about firstborn in Luke 2:7 longtime ago. Bukhra is the word that is used in Luke 2:7. Bukhra is an adjective which means "firstborn." Now here comes the important part from Paul Younan. Here is what Paul Younan said,

"The title "Bukhra", by the way, does not necessarily mean there were more sons. Even today in only-child families, the single child is still referred to as the "bukhra". (blessed)"

Let me take Gospel of Luke as an example. Luke 2:42-51 "And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it. But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance. And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him. And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions. And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers. And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business? And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them. And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart."

Here is the link to read the verses - <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/luk002.htm">http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/kjv/luk002.htm</a><!-- m -->

Here we see that Jesus was 12 years old. His mother Mary and Joseph went up to Jerusalem with Jesus. if Mary and Joseph had other children, then they would have certainly taken them with Jesus to Jerusalem.
Dear beloved in Yashua,Berek Alaha! El Messeah Quam!!! Christ is Risen. In our ancient Holy Orthodox christian tradition not only do we know of the perpeptual virginity of St.Mary and that the siblings of our Mari Yashua were the sons and daughters of St.Joseph from his previous deceased wife as he was an aged widower when the virgin St.Mary was divinely entrusted into his care,we also know her to be ever virgin and that she remained a virgin as she was the human vehicle through whom Maryah incarnated into the flesh as His ikhaydaya and only begotten son Yashua Msheekha.One of many scriptural prophetic passages about the perpeptual nature of St.Mary's virginity is found in Ezekial chpt 44;1-2;Then He brought me back by way of the gate of the outer sanctuary which looks towards the east and behold it was shut.Then the Lord said to me this gate shall be shut.It shall not be opened,and no man shall enter by it,because the Lord,the God of Israel shall enter by it'therefore it shall be shut.In Yashua,Deacon Michael.
berekaloho Wrote:In our ancient Holy Orthodox christian tradition not only do we know of the perpeptual virginity of St.Mary and that the siblings of our Mari Yashua were the sons and daughters of St.Joseph from his previous deceased wife as he was an aged widower when the virgin St.Mary was divinely entrusted into his care,we also know her to be ever virgin and that she remained a virgin as she was the human vehicle through whom Maryah incarnated into the flesh as His ikhaydaya and only begotten son Yashua Msheekha.
This is very interesting! Where can I find more about informations kept in your traditions?
Pages: 1 2 3