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Jerry Wrote:
justalex Wrote:Well, I'm not really concerned with whether or not you agree with the rendering of YAHUshuah any more than I concern myself with the added "h" to the Aramaic "marya"... that is really irrelevant to the question posed...

And in your reply you didn't answer the question of "how" YAHUshuah "gained favour with ELOHIYM and man" if He is ELOHIYM/YHWH or your in the Aramaic primacist rendering marya(h)???

Thanks

justalex
You are right in that "marya" vs "maryah" would be an irrelevant and insignificant variance of transliteration, if that was ever a topic to begin with. YAHUshuah on the other hand, is relevant in that it appears to be a purposeful fabrication of man without biblical support; far beyond a subtle variance in styles of transliteration. And for your information, I have never claimed to be an Aramaic primacist, or non-primacist; nor have I ever advocated for the various assertions being made relative to Mar-Yah, if that was a point you were trying to make.

Regarding Luke 2:52, if you had understood my reply, you would know that I did not interpret the verse as being "gaining favour with God and man", but instead as "gaining ... in grace or graciousness ... towards God and man". In other words, an action of Yeshua towards God and man, and not God and man towards Yeshua. I might be wrong in that interpretation, but that was my reply.

Best regards.

Excuse me if I ignore the entire first paragraph as irrelevant to the topic and your opinion on such is just as irrelevant...

Your second paragraph, your "reply"... still does not answer the topic question as even if it is YAHUshuah gaining favour "towards" vs "with" G-d and man" it would still show that He (YAHUshuah" is not YHWH or in your case marya(h) or the teutonic germanic "gutt" if that be your particular vice...

Thanks for your response however it really doesn't address the question at all...

ShEMA YISRAEL YHWH ELOHEYNU YHWH | EChAD

justalex
distazo Wrote:
justalex Wrote:That's a good point Distazo... YAHUshauh was created first and you can find that also in Mishley 8 where He was "brought forth" by YHWH before the foundations of the world were made... (this is also shown in Yahuchanan 17:5)... However I cannot agree with your point that since He was created or firstborn that it makes Him ELOHIYM... as that is not proven in scripture... I was reading Luqa where it goes through the geneaologies and at the end it says that Adam was the "son of ELOHIYM" also... your assertion would have to include Adam as ELOHIYM since Adam was ELOHIYM's son as well wouldn't it??? (Scratching my head... lol)... ok guys this is a little deeper than I intended but hey, I love learning, LOL...

Thanks,

justalex

It's plainly said in the bible.

And it's quite logical as well.
John 1:1



Colossians 2:9

But if Yeshu is firstborn of God and ALL other things were created by him, we got a point.
It is no heresy or polytheism to claim that God, the almighty is a spirit, The God and his direct creating (agree?) a god as well.
God (Alaha, Elohim) is _just_ <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh --> a title meaning great/mighty. Saying that Jesus was God, is NOT blashpemy or trinity or what ever name you give it.
You are human, and your children will be human.
God is a spirit, and wont his first spiritual creating, called the firstborn, not be a spirit like God?

And now a smashing <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> argument.

John 1:18. (Peshitta _only_!)
Murdock "No man hath ever seen God; the only begotten God, he who is in the bosom of his Father, he hath declared [him]."

So, we have at least TWO Gods here.
John 10:34 even speaks about -gods-.

At least TWO g-ds??? That my friend would put you in the realm of paganism and any Ibriy that had ANYTHING to do with the SEFER Ha ChAYIM would whole-heartedly disagree with that...

Actually it is neither plain nor logical in either as if you take Yahuchanan 1:1 to mean that The Son and The FATHER are the same (or even two g-ds)it is contradictory to Yahuchanan 17:5 where YAHUshuah says he was "with" YHWH before the creation of the world not that He "was" YHWH... along with other scriptures that I will post if necessary... Also, Yahuchanan 10:34 is speaking of man being "g-ds" and is taken from TEHILLUM 82:6 and NOT your errant "two" god theory...

Thanks...

ShEMA YISRAEL YHWH ELOHEYNU YHWH | EChAD

justalex
Oh and lest I not address yout first sentence Distazo... that would also mean the all of the malakiym created were "g-ds" as well and this is errant according to YeshaYAHU 44:8... By the way TEHILLUM 82:6 does not imply any divinity of man...

justalex
justalex Wrote:
distazo Wrote:
justalex Wrote:That's a good point Distazo... YAHUshauh was created first and you can find that also in Mishley 8 where He was "brought forth" by YHWH before the foundations of the world were made... (this is also shown in Yahuchanan 17:5)... However I cannot agree with your point that since He was created or firstborn that it makes Him ELOHIYM... as that is not proven in scripture... I was reading Luqa where it goes through the geneaologies and at the end it says that Adam was the "son of ELOHIYM" also... your assertion would have to include Adam as ELOHIYM since Adam was ELOHIYM's son as well wouldn't it??? (Scratching my head... lol)... ok guys this is a little deeper than I intended but hey, I love learning, LOL...

Thanks,

justalex

It's plainly said in the bible.

And it's quite logical as well.
John 1:1



Colossians 2:9

But if Yeshu is firstborn of God and ALL other things were created by him, we got a point.
It is no heresy or polytheism to claim that God, the almighty is a spirit, The God and his direct creating (agree?) a god as well.
God (Alaha, Elohim) is _just_ <!-- sHuh --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/huh.gif" alt="Huh" title="Huh" /><!-- sHuh --> a title meaning great/mighty. Saying that Jesus was God, is NOT blashpemy or trinity or what ever name you give it.
You are human, and your children will be human.
God is a spirit, and wont his first spiritual creating, called the firstborn, not be a spirit like God?

And now a smashing <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> argument.

John 1:18. (Peshitta _only_!)
Murdock "No man hath ever seen God; the only begotten God, he who is in the bosom of his Father, he hath declared [him]."

So, we have at least TWO Gods here.
John 10:34 even speaks about -gods-.

At least TWO g-ds??? That my friend would put you in the realm of paganism and any Ibriy that had ANYTHING to do with the SEFER Ha ChAYIM would whole-heartedly disagree with that...

Actually it is neither plain nor logical in either as if you take Yahuchanan 1:1 to mean that The Son and The FATHER are the same (or even two g-ds)it is contradictory to Yahuchanan 17:5 where YAHUshuah says he was "with" YHWH before the creation of the world not that He "was" YHWH... along with other scriptures that I will post if necessary... Also, Yahuchanan 10:34 is speaking of man being "g-ds" and is taken from TEHILLUM 82:6 and NOT your errant "two" god theory...

Thanks...

ShEMA YISRAEL YHWH ELOHEYNU YHWH | EChAD

justalex


Shlama Akhi Alex:
I've been reading your posts and find error in your logic. It is the second law of Hillel (equivalence of expression) that can often cause error if English in some way stands between Hebrew and its English equivalence. To equate "man was created by Elohim" with "man was made by Elohim is a true equivalence of expression. They are written to remove ambiguity and make plain that Elohim is Creator of man and "made" and "created" are truly equivalent expressions. Nevertheless, it is not the same thing in Proverbs 8:24, 25 and 30, to say , "Jesus was not created by YHVH", he was "brought forth" not "created". Brought forth=as one calls upon. First, the Proverb is speaking about Wisdom, and it is an assumption that Wisdom is Jesus in this use. Rather Wisdom on this plane and of this calibre is the superior attribute of both Father and Son and is the realm of the Holy Spirit. If there was no creation yet, then only Elohim existed at this time. So Godly Wisdom, as a truly living attribute of Elohim is as it were, "nishmat ruakh khayim", as in Genesis 2:7. This Wisdom was, as it were, added to the nefesh ruakh khayim of Adam. So the WORD or Breath of Elohim dwelt in Adam and is confirmed by Jeremiah in the verse, "it is not in man who walks to direct his own steps". Also in the commandment, "man shall not live by bread alone but by everything which proceeds from the mouth of Elohim. Jesus is the incarnate WORD of Elohim and also in the Gospel of John it is written, "that was the true light which lighs every man which comes into the world. This is referring to "nishmat ruakh khayim", or "the Breath of Elohim".
Moreover, in Luke 3:38 the Aramaic reads, "Adam, who was from Elohim. It does not say that Adam was the son of Elohim, but that Adam was from Elohim. Specifically, Adam was created with the land animals on the sixth day. As a matter of fact, Adam without nishmat ruakh khayim is as the living creatures, all of which are called nefesh khayia, but never nefesh ruakh chayia. Now, it's important at this time to note the difference between the Aramaic and the Greek, from which we have the KJV, The KJV is compiled from several Greek manuscripts and the Hebrew is incorrectly translated as you can see for yourself.

Let's stop here and allow you and others to respond to what I have written, and then we can go on.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver,
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->

Quote:YAHUshauh was created first and you can find that also in Mishley 8 where He was "brought forth" by YHWH before the foundations of the world were made... (this is also shown in Yahuchanan 17:5)... However I cannot agree with your point that since He was created or firstborn that it makes Him ELOHIYM... as that is not proven in scripture... I was reading Luqa where it goes through the geneaologies and at the end it says that Adam was the "son of ELOHIYM" also... your assertion would have to include Adam as ELOHIYM since Adam was ELOHIYM's son as well wouldn't it??? (Scratching my head... lol)... ok guys this is a little deeper than I intended but hey, I love learning, LOL...
Thank you Stephen for your reply... I don't think I have used "my" logic here but followed what the scriptures say...

I did not say that Mishley 8 was about YAHUshuah being "brought forth without first finding the equivalent scriptures to back it up...

In Yahuchanan you find that YAHUshuah says...

Yahuchanan 17
5And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Here you have YAHUshuah {with} The CREATOR before the world were formed...

Compare to Mishley 8

22YHWH possessed Me in the beginning of HIS way, before HIS works of old. 23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. 24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: 26While as yet HE had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27When HE prepared the heavens, I was there: when HE set a compass upon the face of the depth: 28When HE established the clouds above: when HE strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29When HE gave to the sea HIS decree, that the waters should not pass HIS commandment: when HE appointed the foundations of the earth: 30Then I was by HIM, as one brought up with HIM: and I was daily HIS delight, rejoicing always before HIM;


Here in the above you have the same as in Yahuchanan 17:5 but in greater detail...

I also understand your statement that Mishley is speaking merely of "wisdom" however, in the Beriyth Chadashah you find this...

Corintyah Aleph

30But of HIM are you in YAHUshuah ha MASHIACh, who of ELOHIYM is made unto us {WISDOM}, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (emphasis on wisdom mine)...

In Luqa 11 you find the "wisdom" of ELOHIYM again...

49Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:

So YAHushauh is indeed the "wisdom", the righteousness, the sanctification and the redemption... that YHWH "made" Him to be for us and it is told of first in Mishley 8

Of course we can argue the validity of made, created and brought forth and never really agree that they mean the same thing and that is quite ok with me as I understand that each of us looks at words and their usages differently...

My question as it were is not about any of those things however, but merely how YAHUshuah could gain "favour" (or whatever word is placed here as some have argued that another word could be used) with YHWH if He was YHWH... The rest was added to the question without ever actually answering the question...

That is really the only question I have...

Thanks...

justalex
Sorry however I forgot to address Luqa 3:38 concerning Adam... the standard KJV says the following...

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

The Geneva bible says the same... I understand that what you wrote as from the Interlinear however I have a Hebrew NT translation and it simply says Beyn EOLHIYM...

I realize many will find that a Hebrew NT is not really (correct) however since you look at an Aramaic translated one, I see no harm in looking at one in Hebrew...

Thanks...

justalex
Shlama Akhi Alex:
I can't chase you around the forum as you change the scriptural topics. Please, if you see fault in the scriptures I have brought forth and if you can understand Hebrew and Aramaic enought to comment on them then I'd appreciate that you do, or we will go in circles and waste time and energy. Therefore, I want to park here and clarify some definitions so that we both feel that we are on the same page.

1)"nishmat ruakh khahim". can you simply define what this phrase means?

2) "nefesh khayia". Again, what does it mean?

Use the Hebrew Bible and point me to verses that affirm their meaning. I'll give you a hint. "Job Chapter 26:4, 27:3.

Job had a perfect understanding of both of these phrases and he used them to bring praise to Elohim.

Quote:So YAHushauh is indeed the "wisdom", the righteousness, the sanctification and the redemption... that YHWH "made" Him to be for us and it is told of first in Mishley 8


wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption are attributes of Elohim. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in YHVH. Here, Yeshua is YHVH. In I Corinthians 12:3 it is read, "No one speaking by the Spirit of Elohim calls Jesus cursed and no one can say that YHVH is Yeshua except by the Holy Spirit". These readings are from the Peshitta and differ slightly from the Greek, but not considerably. The order of YHVH and Yeshua change but the meaning is the same. Compare Genesis 1:1, Hebrews 1"9, Psalm 110:1-2, Ephesians 3:9.

Now, without skirting the issue Alex, can you read Hebrew and Aramaic enough to discern by Lexical analysis it's intrinsic meaning?

Please keep your answers clear, concise and as accurate as you can.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->.
Stephen Silver Wrote:Shlama Akhi Alex:
I can't chase you around the forum as you change the scriptural topics. Please, if you see fault in the scriptures I have brought forth and if you can understand Hebrew and Aramaic enought to comment on them then I'd appreciate that you do, or we will go in circles and waste time and energy. Therefore, I want to park here and clarify some definitions so that we both feel that we are on the same page.

1)"nishmat ruakh khahim". can you simply define what this phrase means?

2) "nefesh khayia". Again, what does it mean?

Use the Hebrew Bible and point me to verses that affirm their meaning. I'll give you a hint. "Job Chapter 26:4, 27:3.

Job had a perfect understanding of both of these phrases and he used them to bring praise to Elohim.

Quote:So YAHushauh is indeed the "wisdom", the righteousness, the sanctification and the redemption... that YHWH "made" Him to be for us and it is told of first in Mishley 8


wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption are attributes of Elohim. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in YHVH. Here, Yeshua is YHVH. In I Corinthians 12:3 it is read, "No one speaking by the Spirit of Elohim calls Jesus cursed and no one can say that YHVH is Yeshua except by the Holy Spirit". These readings are from the Peshitta and differ slightly from the Greek, but not considerably. The order of YHVH and Yeshua change but the meaning is the same. Compare Genesis 1:1, Hebrews 1"9, Psalm 110:1-2, Ephesians 3:9.

Now, without skirting the issue Alex, can you read Hebrew and Aramaic enough to discern by Lexical analysis it's intrinsic meaning?

Please keep your answers clear, concise and as accurate as you can.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->.


Actually I haven't asked you to "chase" me anywhere at all... I asked a simple question that, to date, has not been addressed...

As far as your phrases from Iyob are concerned, they have nothing to do with the passage from Luqa do they??? Or is it you that is introducing something "new" into the conversation??? However just for argument's sake... this is Iyob 26:4

EYTh-MIY HIGADeThA MILIYN WeNISheMATh-MIY YATzeAHMIMEYKhA:

and Iyob 27:3

KIY-KAL-`OWD NISheMAThIY BIY WeRUACh ELOAH BeAPhIY: (RUACh mentioned here refers to the breath that Iyob has within him, not his Spirit)...

What you apparently miss in those passages is that Iyob is replying to Bildad... and neither of them address Luqa 2:52... nor do they have anything with The Son...

Furthermore I have never said I read or speak Aramaic... I've never even attempted to do either as my interest is not in that area at this point in my life, however that too is irrelevant to my question...

Your argument about what or should I say whom "wisdom, sanctification and redemption" are with the scriptures not me... As the katub says that ELOHIYM {MADE} YAHUshuah these things for us in Corintyah 1:30... However this too is irrelevant to my question...

Your reasoning for making portions of your post is your own... It does not answer my question as Corintyah Aleph 12:3 does not either... It actually makes the question that much important as Luqa certainly did not say the same in 2:52...

There certainly is no issue to "skirt" other than the fact that you, nor anyone else has answeredd the question but have given all sorts of interpretations and reasons for your belief...

NOW... I ask that you answer this as "concisely" as possible... How could YAHUshuah, the Son OF YHWH "gain favour" with ELOHIYM if He is ELOHIYM??? If you cannot answer it, believe me when I say I understand, as I have yet to find anyone that says the Son and the FATHER are the same, online or otherwise, that can explain that one passage without contradicting their belief system...

Thanks...

justalex
Rafa Wrote:The Most Holy Trinity is YHWH. None of the Arian theology is accepted by the ACOE. Read the proceedings of the Council of Nice as written by Marutha of Meparkat under direction of Patriarch Mar Isaac :

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/marutha_nicaea_02_text.htm">http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefat ... 2_text.htm</a><!-- m -->

If you know that the "trinity" is a nicaean "doctrine, then you must realize that none of the shlichiym adhered to it...

Thanks...

justalex
justalex Wrote:
Stephen Silver Wrote:Shlama Akhi Alex:
I can't chase you around the forum as you change the scriptural topics. Please, if you see fault in the scriptures I have brought forth and if you can understand Hebrew and Aramaic enought to comment on them then I'd appreciate that you do, or we will go in circles and waste time and energy. Therefore, I want to park here and clarify some definitions so that we both feel that we are on the same page.

1)"nishmat ruakh khahim". can you simply define what this phrase means?

2) "nefesh khayia". Again, what does it mean?

Use the Hebrew Bible and point me to verses that affirm their meaning. I'll give you a hint. "Job Chapter 26:4, 27:3.

Job had a perfect understanding of both of these phrases and he used them to bring praise to Elohim.

Quote:So YAHushauh is indeed the "wisdom", the righteousness, the sanctification and the redemption... that YHWH "made" Him to be for us and it is told of first in Mishley 8


wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption are attributes of Elohim. All the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily in YHVH. Here, Yeshua is YHVH. In I Corinthians 12:3 it is read, "No one speaking by the Spirit of Elohim calls Jesus cursed and no one can say that YHVH is Yeshua except by the Holy Spirit". These readings are from the Peshitta and differ slightly from the Greek, but not considerably. The order of YHVH and Yeshua change but the meaning is the same. Compare Genesis 1:1, Hebrews 1"9, Psalm 110:1-2, Ephesians 3:9.

Now, without skirting the issue Alex, can you read Hebrew and Aramaic enough to discern by Lexical analysis it's intrinsic meaning?

Please keep your answers clear, concise and as accurate as you can.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">http://www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- m -->.


Actually I haven't asked you to "chase" me anywhere at all... I asked a simple question that, to date, has not been addressed...

As far as your phrases from Iyob are concerned, they have nothing to do with the passage from Luqa do they??? Or is it you that is introducing something "new" into the conversation??? However just for argument's sake... this is Iyob 26:4

EYTh-MIY HIGADeThA MILIYN WeNISheMATh-MIY YATzeAHMIMEYKhA:

and Iyob 27:3

KIY-KAL-`OWD NISheMAThIY BIY WeRUACh ELOAH BeAPhIY: (RUACh mentioned here refers to the breath that Iyob has within him, not his Spirit)...

What you apparently miss in those passages is that Iyob is replying to Bildad... and neither of them address Luqa 2:52... nor do they have anything with The Son...

Furthermore I have never said I read or speak Aramaic... I've never even attempted to do either as my interest is not in that area at this point in my life, however that too is irrelevant to my question...

Your argument about what or should I say whom "wisdom, sanctification and redemption" are with the scriptures not me... As the katub says that ELOHIYM {MADE} YAHUshuah these things for us in Corintyah 1:30... However this too is irrelevant to my question...

Your reasoning for making portions of your post is your own... It does not answer my question as Corintyah Aleph 12:3 does not either... It actually makes the question that much important as Luqa certainly did not say the same in 2:52...

There certainly is no issue to "skirt" other than the fact that you, nor anyone else has answeredd the question but have given all sorts of interpretations and reasons for your belief...

NOW... I ask that you answer this as "concisely" as possible... How could YAHUshuah, the Son OF YHWH "gain favour" with ELOHIYM if He is ELOHIYM??? If you cannot answer it, believe me when I say I understand, as I have yet to find anyone that says the Son and the FATHER are the same, online or otherwise, that can explain that one passage without contradicting their belief system...

Thanks...

justalex


Shlama Akhi Alex:
Your transliteration of Hebrew is not impressive at all to me. If you can't read Hebrew or Aramaic then you will not be able to understand the subtle nuances that I have pointed out to you. Your persuasion that Yeshua is not YHVH is going nowhere fast and frankly I've given you all the time I intend to. Indeed your argument is very weak. Whatever teachers you have been following are leading you astray. I Corinthians 12:3 declares unambiguously that Yeshua is YHVH the Son and that He has always been YHVH the Son. This fact is indisputable and many scholars here agree with this because the scripture makes the connection and not some human endeavour.
Without a clear knowledge of Hebrew and Aramaic it is not easy to see Yeshua to be YHVH, even though Genesis 26 gives a clear understanding and from there it goes on and on.
You have no right to demand that I answer your questions any more than I have Alex. You would not be able to grasp the information that is given. As much as I would like to help you Alex you are just wasting my time and yours to stay on the present course. You apear to me to have a faulty agenda and you have engaged others on this forum only to put forth your own faulty ideas and you are not interested in actually learning the truth. You are your own teacher and you will go in circles if you continue on your present course. Don't waste any more of our precious time. I've been studing Aramaic Primacy and the Peshitta for over 12 years. I was one of the first to join <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.peshitta.org">www.peshitta.org</a><!-- w -->. I don't want to continue this thread with you. Find someone else who wants to waste their precious time following your incorrect teaching.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver,
Dukhrana Biblical Research,
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukhrana.com">www.dukhrana.com</a><!-- w -->
justalex Wrote:NOW... I ask that you answer this as "concisely" as possible... How could YAHUshuah, the Son OF YHWH "gain favour" with ELOHIYM if He is ELOHIYM??? If you cannot answer it, believe me when I say I understand, as I have yet to find anyone that says the Son and the FATHER are the same, online or otherwise, that can explain that one passage without contradicting their belief system...

What do you do with the verses I gave you?
justalex Wrote:That's a good point Distazo... YAHUshauh was created first and you can find that also in Mishley 8 where He was "brought forth" by YHWH before the foundations of the world were made... (this is also shown in Yahuchanan 17:5)... However I cannot agree with your point that since He was created or firstborn that it makes Him ELOHIYM... as that is not proven in scripture... I was reading Luqa where it goes through the geneaologies and at the end it says that Adam was the "son of ELOHIYM" also... your assertion would have to include Adam as ELOHIYM since Adam was ELOHIYM's son as well wouldn't it??? (Scratching my head... lol)... ok guys this is a little deeper than I intended but hey, I love learning, LOL...

Actually, Adam is not called 'son of God' the aramaic simply says: "of God."
Further, Adam was a human, so not God. This is quite clear. Being called 'sons of god' is not the main point. The main point is that ONLY Yeshu is called the firstborn God in John 1:18, no one else.

If you degrade Yehsu to a merely a prophet, just someone who like ALL of us is 'son of god', and called 'wisdom' in proverbs 8, what is the value of the sacrifice and the cross? _nothing_ Anyone could have died at the cross!

As you understand, this is quite a problem in christian dogma.

However if Yeshu IS manifestation (avatar) of God (John 1:1), then really, really, our Creator participated in the human pain we experience over the millenia.
Distazo,

What do you do with the ONE passage I gave you??? Luqa 2:52 remember... No one has addressed that one passage as of yet, all that has been done is to try to justify the "why" of your belief system... And as I said to Stephen, if you cannot answerthat question, it's really not a problem because you aren't alone...

I don't know from where you're reading however both the standard KJ and the Geneva Bibles say "son of G-d"... The Hebrew translation says "beyn ELOHIYM" which also means "son of ELOHIYM"...

The question I asked has nothing to do with The Son being firstborn, nor do you get any argument from me that He indeed is firstborn of YHWH as per Mishley 8 and Yahuchanan 17:5.... so I see no point to you stating that again as if it is germaine to the question at hand...

If perhaps you could find where I said YAHUshuah was "merely a prophet" you would again have a valid point... however YOU CANNOT find such as I have NEVER made such a statememt, so again, the question is why not just answer the question??? How could The Son gain favour with ELOHIYM if He is ELOHIYM???

Thanks,

justalex
justalex Wrote:Distazo,

What do you do with the ONE passage I gave you??? Luqa 2:52 remember... No one has addressed that one passage as of yet, all that has been done is to try to justify the "why" of your belief system... And as I said to Stephen, if you cannot answerthat question, it's really not a problem because you aren't alone...
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About believe systems; They are called with a reason. So is your 'system'.
justalex Wrote:If perhaps you could find where I said YAHUshuah was "merely a prophet" you would again have a valid point... however YOU CANNOT find such as I have NEVER made such a statememt, so again, the question is why not just answer the question??? How could The Son gain favour with ELOHIYM if He is ELOHIYM???

This shows you have not read any of my replies.
All I wrote was for nothing?

Luqa did not write that Yeshu was the Eternal God himself. I explained to you that Yeshu in fact also is God (John 1:1, 18) but when Luqa wrote that verse, he wrote about the heavenly God and addresses him as 'Alaha'.


Even Stefanos makes this point Acts 7:53:
He sees the BarNasha standing WITH Alaha.
He saw Alaha AND the son.

However, many occasions from John and Paul explain that Yeshu ALSO was God. God is not a name it is a title.

The name YHWH however, higher than any other name, is given to Yeshu (PHillipians 2:9). The name is not just 'LORD' which is not a name.

When I make this point, I am accused of being Arian, well and this makes dogmatism really laughable. What ever you all guys have in store for believe systems; none of you can prove and claim truth.

NEITHER do you and I. Alex.
Shlama Khulkon:
Luke 2:52 is referring to Jesus early life of which we have no record except the statement from Luke.

"But Jesus increased in his stature, and in his wisdom, and in "favour/grace" with Alaha and men."

stature means to grow in height as well as to acquire a stamding. It has the same lexeme "qum" as standing as in baptism. Same root/lexeme.

favour/grace with Alaha and with men points to his acceptance within the community of Alaha. He was seen by men as a godly man. Anyone that is in the favour of Alaha has this standing as well as the affirmation of the Holy Spirit. Remember, Christ was flesh and blood and bone like any other man. Alaha sent Christ, the WORD of Alaha, as His own personal messenger, called by Elohim as the Messenger of the Covenant. (Malachi 3:2

Indeed this is very much beyond the work of a man. It's the work of Alaha. When compared with all other scripture one should see the harmony being shown here.

Alex, if this is all that you were looking for I am glad to put it in a much simpler form so that we can be on the same page. To proclaim that Christ is the WORD of Alaha, or to say, "Alaha sent His Son as messenger of the Covenant are equivalent exptessions. As to how and the mystery of the incarnation of Christ and the Virgin birth, one can accept this by faith in the Living Word of Alaha. It is by faith in Christ that we have our being and our eternal peace. If Christ was not Alaha he would not have been resurrected by the Spirit of the Father. This faith is the Foundation, the "even pina", "corner-stone" of the Christian faith. There is no other name under heaven whereby we must be saved, the name of Jesus Christ. Christ's name is not just what his mother called him when dinner was ready but the entire embodiment of Alaha the WORD, in the flesh.

Shlama,
Stephen Silver,
Dukhrana Biblical Researh,
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