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Yes...Master Yah, who is The Word/Miltha of God, the Father, He who is God of God and Light of Light....Being God with us, sent forth of and from His Father, they being ONE. No one, but the Son of the Father has seen the Father at any time, but The Miltha of God the Father has made Him known to those whom the Father has given Him, and by and through which, has caused us to be reconciled with God, who were once estranged from and His enemies because of our now forgiven sins.
Paul Younan Wrote:
distazo Wrote:However, in some cases, marya also is used for people, in the NT. Somewhere in acts.

Shlama Akhi Distazo,

You're wrong on this point. You may be thinking of Maraye (plural of Mar), with the zqape for plurality. 3rd-person plural of "mar" (lord). The word is spelled with the same consonants as Marya, but it's not pronounced with the same vowels. One is plural, the other is singular.


MRYA -> Lord Yah, always. Never used to mean anything else, period.

+Shamasha

Dear Paul,

This is getting confusing.

Why does your interlinear than not have this, but LORD?
And I immediately would accept your knowledge on this subject, however, there is so much information against this.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/The%20Mar-Yah%20Deception/The%20Mar-Yah%20Deception.html">http://www.natzraya.org/Articles/The%20 ... ption.html</a><!-- m -->

Regards
Shlama Akhi Distazo,

The Interlinear has "LORD" spelled all in caps, which is a literary tradition in English for the Sacred Name that I chose to carry on from those before me. "Lord Yah" sounds strange in English, so I didn't want to use that. Sometimes the choices you make in translating are not perfect, right? If I've missed a place and have it as "Lord" or "lord", please let me know so I can correct it. It was not intentional. It should always be "LORD."

There is no information against it: there is only one meaning, always has been and always will be. This is not a subject that is debatable, it's universally understood in the literary evidence and employed by speakers of the language, this is what the word means. Nothing else.

+Shamasha
Justin Martyr about 160 A.D. "But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given."

Why would this be said by a leading Christian teacher of the 2nd century?

It is because the early Christians, knew and understood, that The Word of God, the Offspring of God The Father, was the One, whom mankind was dealing with, whom the Father sent to reveal Himself unto mankind. The Name of God's Holy Word is YAHWEH...and YAHWEH, became a Human Being, in the person of YAHSHUA.

Some like to use other forms, like YAHUAH, or YAHVEH or JEHOVAH or YEHOWAH...or simply YHWH or YHUH.
Grammatically, (maur-yau`) is simply the singular emphatic to (mau-rau`), which is the base root, or singular absolute. This is what confuses most people, including myself, as typically one would assume (maur) to be the base root, and (mau-rau`) to be the singular emphatic. However, the use of (mau-re`) as the singular construct, whereas normally it would be the plural emphatic, gives evidence to (mau-rau`) being the base root for "Lord".

(mau-rau`) - "lord"
(mau-re`) - "the-lord-of ..."
(maur-yau`) - "the-lord"
(mau-ra-yau`) - "the-lords"

By context, it is indeterminate as to whether (mau-rau`) is singular emphatic or singular absolute, as both "the-lord" and "lord" seem appropriate in English. But it is the rest of the grammatical structure that defines it as the absolute, most notably the use of (mau-re`) as the singular construct, and the use of (mau-ra-yau`) as the plural emphatic to (maur-yau`).

Sedra 3 appears to have it right when they list the grammatical structure as this, for it is the only way all the components can be aligned to match the grammatical variables.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/lexeme.php?adr=1:1843&font=Estrangelo+Edessa&size=150">http://dukhrana.com/lexicon/lexeme.php? ... a&size=150</a><!-- m -->%
Shlama Jerry.

There is no grammatical rule in Aramaic that would modify the root while constructing the lexeme, to include a Yodh as the third radical when making the emphatic. That rule doesn't exist in any other example. That's where the theory is wrong.

+Shamasha
Jerry

Additionally, the singular emphatic of Mar is Mara, and is attested to in the historical literature as well as the modern vernacular.

Are you the author of that article?

+Shamasha
Jerry, the corrected grammar (absolute vs. emphatic) is below for your reference:

(mar, m-r) - "lord" (absolute)
(mara, m-r-a) - "the-lord" (emphatic)

Reference the following verses for examples of the Emphatic case of Mar (without the Yodh)

Mattai 9:38, 11:25, 13:52, 20:1, 20:11, 20:8, 21:33, 24:43
Marqus 12:9
Luqa 7:41, 10:2, 10:21, 12:39, 13:25, 14:21, 14:23, 20:13, 20:15
Acts 14:12, 17:24,
Galatians 4:1
Colossians 4:1

The absolute is MAR (m-r), the emphatic is MARA (m-r-a) as in the above examples. You'll see it used as a construct in Mattai 9:38 (Mara Khasda), as well as an Emphatic in Mattai 11:25 (Mara de Shmaya).

Marya is not the Emphatic state of Mar. You will find no other example where a Yudh is used as the third radical when constructing the emphatic.

+Shamasha
Shlama akhi Paul,


thanks for chiming in on this subject. this is one i've been trying to unravel for awhile now. the lexicons and everything i've read of a "scholarly" <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: --> nature suggest MARYA as being from MARA -- and so i thought that MAR was a title that developed from the older MARA at a later date. do you have any further info on MAR being the absolute of MARA? i know depending entirely on lexicons for some grammatical aspects is not always the best choice, but as a non-native user of the language, i have no other choice at the moment!

while i have no issue theologically with MARYA = YHWH, it is the linguistic/grammatical side that i'm not seeing clearly defined. was MARYA an adapted term with MARA as the base, but with the yudh inserted to emphasize specifically that this is ONLY YHWH intended? (thinking of how HOSHEA became YEHOSHUA, with the implied appearance of YHW by the addition of the yudh -- ie, the Name is not actually there since the root doesn't allow it, but in a way, it visually/phonetically is...hope that made sense!) could it be the same issue here? i wonder because i've only personally seen MAR used at a later date than the Peshitta's apostolic timeframe. i had asked Bauscher in an earlier post on this thread to provide evidence showing some kind of usage of MAR from earlier times, but he never responded. so maybe you can give an example to satisfy my neurotic grammatical standards. <!-- s:crazy: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/crazy.gif" alt=":crazy:" title="Crazy" /><!-- s:crazy: --> it certainly is used in reference to the Deity, tho i've seen some instances in the AN"K where it was used to translate the Hebrew terms "Elohim" and "Adonai," as well. i also noticed a few times where the Hebrew YHWH was translated as MARA, for what it is worth.

in the end it doesn't amount to too much, i suppose, except for the nitty-gritty details of the nature of the Messiah, tho He saves in spite of one's particular belief on that subject anyway, thankfully! but i would really like to pin down a more definitive answer, if possible. in my personal translations i just transliterate every instance of MARYA in the NT, anyway, so for me it is not a big deal other than to satisfy my ponderings....

thanks!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Shlama Akhi Jeremy,

Let's shift gears a bit to less controversial roots, so we can examine the grammar a bit to satisfy your "neurotic" grammatical standards! <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> I'll try to keep this as short as possible so as to not ramble. A lot of information below in a concise format.

As you know, Semitic languages are largely based on tri-consonantal verbal roots. There are roots that are nouns, not verbs. But for this grammar lesson let's just concentrate on a handful of examples from roots that are verbs. Specifically, verbs containing weak radicals.

The grammar involving "weak-3rd radicals" (meaning the 3rd consonant is Aleph, Waw, Ayin or Yodh) ..... Let's look at two example verbal roots that have weak 3rd-radicals:

B-R-A ("to create", just like in Hebrew)
Q-R-A ("to read", just like in Hebrew)

So these are verbs, and the pattern is X-X-A (where "A" is the weak-3rd radical, because they end in Aleph)

To create the Emphatic noun for the weak 3rd-radical, you would employ the following pattern:

Xa-X-W-Y-A (vowel "a" after first consonant, Waw after 2nd radical and Yodh prior to the weak-3rd radical)

So to create an Emphatic noun from each of the above weak-3rd radical verbal roots, we have the following:

Ba-R-W-Y-A (baroya, "Creat-or", cf. Romans 1:25, 1Peter 4:19)
Qa-R-W-Y-A (qaroya, "Read-er/Lect-or")

------------------------------------------------------------------
--- logical break here ----------
------------------------------------------------------------------

There are roots that have both a weak 2nd and a weak 3rd radical. The base pattern of such a root is X-A-A. (Where the A-A represents the weak 2nd and 3rd radicals)

An example root:

R-(-A (Resh, Ayin, Aleph) - ("to see/to watch", just like in Hebrew)

In this case, we would employ the following pattern:

Xa-A-Y-A (vowel "a" after first consonant, Yodh prior to final 3rd-radical)

So to create an Emphatic noun from the above weak-2nd and 3rd radical verbal root, we have the following:

Ra-(-Y-A (Raeaya, "Shepherd", cf. Matthew 9:36, 25:32, John 10:11, etc.)

------------------------------------------------------------------
--- logical break here ----------
------------------------------------------------------------------

As you see here, there are two patterns to create an Emphatic noun (there are other irregular patterns, but out of scope) from a verbal root, in other words creating a substantive. Which one you use depends on the nature of the root. Is it a weak-3rd radical? Or a weak 2nd and 3rd-radical? To summarize, they are listed again below.

Xa-X-W-Y-A (vowel "a" after first consonant, Waw after 2nd radical and Yodh prior to the weak-3rd radical)
Xa-A-Y-A (vowel "a" after first consonant, Yodh prior to final 3rd-radical)

------------------------------------------------------------------
--- logical break here ----------
------------------------------------------------------------------

None of what I said above, is applicable to M-R-A in any way, shape or form. Why?

The Aramaic root meaning "lord" is M-R-A. (Meem, Resh, Aleph) It is not a verbal root. It is a noun root. Most of the time, lexemes derived from a noun root that ends in a weak radical retain the same form as the root. For instance, Maya ("Water"), Kasa ("Cup"), etc. All of the Emphatic forms for these are unaltered from the root. So "Cup" is "Kasa", "A Cup" is "Kasa", "The Cup" is also "Kasa"....you get the idea, right?

Search the Lexicon for these words and see that they retain their root form for the Emphatic. These roots are nouns and not substantives (nouns that are be derived from verbal roots like "create", "watch", "read".) They are not subject to the patterns addressed above.

The confusion around this stems from trying to apply a pattern meant for a verbal root with weak 2nd and 3rd radicals, normally reserved for nouns derived from verbs, to a word with a root that is a noun rather than a verb.

The bottom line is that M-R-A is a noun root, not a verb root. The Emphatic of the noun root M-R-A, is M-R-A, unaltered. No patterns needed to create the Emphatic.

Even if M-R-A was a verbal root (which it is not), then it still remains that the 2nd radical is not weak. How would you get the Yodh before the final weak radical, without the Waw? You would have to write it as "Maroya" - This is absolutely unattested to in the literature and spoken language. I cannot think of another single example. It's silly sounding to the native ear.

The author of this article has no clue about the differences in Aramaic grammar surrounding verbal and non-verbal roots. It is purely a deception, heavily biased towards his apparent hostility regarding the orthodox Christian position that the Messiah is God and Man.

To answer your last question re: the construct and absolute forms, here is the relevant entry from Theodor Noldeke's Compedious Syriac Grammar: (go to page 93 in the link)

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://books.google.com/books?id=VP_PP9VW-hUC&pg=PA129&lpg=PA129&dq=syriac+weak+radicals&source=bl&ots=GsH2Y9jWA3&sig=ESXftHr5k_qdleyH7cKF4E9GOOI&hl=en&ei=FSbwTZWPJcG1twel9rWaDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=lord&f=false">http://books.google.com/books?id=VP_PP9 ... rd&f=false</a><!-- m -->

[Image: noldeke.jpg]

Note the "Only used of God and of Christ (sic)" (as if They aren't one and the same!!!!)

+Shamasha
Shlama akhi Paul,


MUCH thanks for taking the time to break it down. i'm seeing it finally like never before; explaining it this way makes perfect sense. with those grammatical pieces missing before it just wasn't connecting as to what was going on, but what you laid forth really does make sense. i'm thinking you should clean it up and put it on the article page for easy access to all interested. it could really aide in dispelling much confusion.

again, thanks for bringing the evidence i've been needing for a long time now! i hope it made sense to others, as well.

as for the author of the initial article, yes, i agree about his animosity towards accepting the Deity of Messiah -- i had originally called him on a very erroneous reading he slipped into Colossians, but he wouldn't back down on his position even after his gross misuse of the term was exposed....so i don't know if even this would be enough to change his mind, sadly....but who knows?


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Shlama Akhi Jeremy,

You're welcome, I'm glad that helped. I may just make an article about it so we can finally just point people to that rather than risk having confusion surrounding this very important topic.

The thing that is very disturbing to me is the unfortunate position Prof. Brock is taking on this subject. If you recall, I had a debate regarding this topic online a little while back. Prof. Brock chimed in in support of my opponent, by citing r-(-a and b-r-a as lexical roots in favor of his position. It's inexcusable that a professor, the chair in fact, of Syriac Studies at a prestigious university (Oxford, of all) could make such an elementary mistake as this - confusing the Emphatic state from Substantivization of Participles from III-weak verbs, vs. the Emphatic State of the Normal III-weak Noun. Below is the relevant section from Thackston's Grammar:

http://www.peshitta.org/images/thackston203.jpg

+Shamasha
Paul, that grammar lesson was really great. Thans a lot!!!


Thirdwoe Wrote:Justin Martyr about 160 A.D. "But to the Father of all, who is unbegotten there is no name given."

Why would this be said by a leading Christian teacher of the 2nd century?

It is because the early Christians, knew and understood, that The Word of God, the Offspring of God The Father, was the One, whom mankind was dealing with, whom the Father sent to reveal Himself unto mankind. The Name of God's Holy Word is YAHWEH...and YAHWEH, became a Human Being, in the person of YAHSHUA.
Thirdwoe, i don't know if you read some of my posts regarding this, but this is exactly what i am saying all the time. i usually like to sum it up like this:
The Father (of all, not God in figurative functions like "father of israel" etc) is completely urevealed.

Whenhe started creation, he started to reveal himself. Of course, his creation is within him, and so his revelation both encompasses creation and prvides the framework and fabric thereof. That "super"-revelation is the word. The word is all of God that is revealed to any of creation. Though it is a consistent , superior concept, one may as well see it as a summarization of all of God's manifestations from our perspective.

Whenever God reveals himself, it is the word revealing himself. Be it as a pillar of fire, a voice of thunder, in a vision,as light, as a celestial being, through divine love or anything else. It seems to me that when God authored creation, he determined how to reveal himself in each domain. These domains of creations are not equal to phsical dimensions, but rather divine concepts. One of these domains is what we call heaven. The revelation of the word in that domain, i suppose, is what we call Yahweh. As the heavenly domain is above the physical world, that revelation can also be percieved in the physical world.

However, though this revelation is somewhat physical, it is not completely compatible to humans as it is simply too raw and strong. That is why humans die when they see Yahweh face to face. This revelation is not 100% compatible to humans and must be percieved through a filter (dreams, vivions, manifestations of many kinds, angels, anthropomorphisms, in human form, the back (->moses), an etc).

Other domains are the human as an individual, and humans as a whole. Now, the revelation of the word native to these domains is Jesus Christ. That is why Jesus is the highest revelation of God humans can possibly percieve (whereas one may argure that God inheaven is actually a stronger revelation, but we cannot fully percieve that revelation, and it is too crude and brutal for us). Jesus is fully compatible to any individual, and a reference model to all humanity. For Jesus to be native to our domain, he had to follow human limitations, and that is why he had to not just appear human (like he did to abraham) but actually be human. Else he would not be a perfect revelation within our domain.

As Jesus is the perfect and highest revelation of God himself to us, he is all of the father we will ever be able to percieve, the fullness of the godhead bodily, God revealed in the fesh, the word made flesh; and that is why he can say whoever sees him sees the father, though the father can be seen by no one directly.

So, when you say Jesus, you are talking as directly to the father as you possibly can. All of God is revealed in Christ to us.

Let me know if you agree/disagree. i really liked your quote from Justin, if you have more like that, let me know. i know you could attack my terminology, and even the way i present the concepts, but just try to understand what i am saying instead of tryng to tear it down (but i always appreciate serious criticism).
Paul, I don't know of any parallel to the MR` root, even among noun roots. It seems to be unique to itself. So turning (MauR-Yau`) into the proper noun MarYah is always going to be a speculative venture, IMO. I doubt your case can be proven any more than I could prove that it is a singular emphatic.

For example, (Mau-Re`) is unique. I don't know of any other root, where such a construction would be the singular construct if (Mau-Rau`) is the singular emphatic. It would instead be the plural emphatic. Yes, (MauR-Yau`) is unique, but so is (Mau-Ra-Yau`). So if (MauR-Yau`) is the proper noun MarYah, then what is (Mau-Ra-Yau`)?

There is a finite number of forms that a root conforms to. They are singular absolute, construct, and emphatic. And plural absolute, construct, and emphatic. Six of in total. Sometimes, singular absolute and construct are inflected the same. MR` is a large root, with many examples. The SEDRA 3 listing is the only way that it's various inflections can be aligned to the six grammatical forms. It is the only way to put the puzzle together.

To assume that MarYah exists, is to assume that the singular absolute never occurs in the root. Possible, but unlikely in such a large sample. We know that by context (MauR-Yau`) works as "the-Lord" or "a-lord" in all examples. We know that MarYah doesn't. It doesn't in Matthew 22: 43 & 45.

It could be that (Mau-Rau`) is the singular emphatic, and not the absolute. In fact, it is the weakest link in my argument. It could be that (MauR-Yau`) is something beyond that of singular emphatic. But even then, I would not be convinced that MarYah is the answer.

Just my reflections on the subject. I am not convinced I am correct, but not convinced I am wrong either. It is just where I am at this moment of time.
Jerry, i think we are not to forget that Pauls theory makes a lot more sense for one reason, which is the apparent avoidance of other supposed forms of Marya in scripture. If Paul was incorrect, why do we not find other forms to be as common as Marya? i'm no grammar freak, but i guess you get my point. Paul lines it up, whereas other theories seem to build on too little. The thousands of times Marya clearly refers to YHWH are too much weight to ignore. It is the practical that is convincing to me.
Sory if i made no sense.
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