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Rafa Wrote:
Quote:Actually, no, they haven't. Rafa didn't give scripture, he gave Chalcedon 451 Christology fromthe rcc.

No, I gave the Christology of the entire Church which met in 325 A.D. not just that of the Bishop of Rome/ Latin rite, the Christology which received approval by every single Bishop of the Church except a handful of lonely people who were later on struck down leaving no ecclesiastical line whatsoever (meaning they were in grave heresy and disfavored by the Almighty). The Keys of heaven, the power which loose and bind given to were used to make a God breathed decision there which accurately interpreted the scriptures for us. As for "following Constantine's mandates"... the poor Emperor actually was duped by Arians into believing their Christology (not the underlying meaning but their lying words) and he sent in exile the Bishop of Alexandria Athanasius for this.


Still it is Constantine's mandate and not scripture Rafa. There were people disfavored by YHWH stemming from Nicea 325? Who? Who told you that? Wait, it's unimportant becase there still are no answers as to whom "Jesus" was praying and to whom He commotted His spirit. As well as who was speaking from heaven after His baptism and after the transfiguration at the mount of olives.

Not one scripture, just man's doctrine, of which I am not and do not make myself subject to unless it lines up with scripture.

I know all about Athansius and Arius' back and forth but those aren't scriptures either.

Again, scripture. None given, but thanks for your response.

justalex
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Ahki,

Yes sure Mr. godzjustice of Black Planet.com (Alex) you made a statement, a sarcastic statement non the less of which your combativeness is in clear view, call it what you want to but in the end it is what it is, point after point has been made to you yet you obviously don't get it, perhaps the reason you haven't received your answer is because of your unwillingness to accept what has been presented to you, and that is your prerogative, and again like Rafa kindly stated, why are you wasting your time here? I know I am not and am learning from these individuals here everyday, perhaps you should peruse a Muslim forum or website that would accommodate your ideology justly. We're all adults here, perhaps you should try acting like one.

Shlama wBurkate

Sonero

Well, I apologize if your little feelings were hurt however I am seeking answers of which you have none to proffer so what is the point of this conversation?

Perhaps I have not received an answer that matches scriptures. Have you considered that? Have you any scriptures to offer that would satisfy my query?

You parroting what Rafa said isn't an answer as I explained to him what I meant, any answer given by any man must line up with scripture, if it does not, it is summarily dismissed.

So sorry Sonero, however you don't tell me where I need, should or may do. If you don't like my questions, you may ignore them. Especially if you have no answer, however that does not stop me from seeking the TRUTH. Even if you "think" it has been given to YOUR satisfaction.

This is the last time I will discourse with you here as it isn't beneficial. You may continue to post to me but I will ignore any and everything you pot to me.

Find YOUR peace, I have mine.

justalex
Shlama Ahki,

Titus 2:13
1Tim 3:16
Rom 9:5
Col 2:9
Yesha'Yahu 9:6
Mal'ahki 3:1

We could continue on and on but for what? For those that believe, no explanation is necessary, for those that don't, no explanation is possible.

Shlama wBurkate
justalex Wrote:I'm guessing the answer to all the above is NO... and you still didn't answer the question... To whom did "Jesus" commit His NPhSh if He is YHWH??? HIMSELF???

Not so, I directly answered this question ...read back.

justalex Wrote:Did you miss where YHWH receives the glory FIRST then "AND the LAMB"??? Clearly two separate entities...

It did NOT say that! The scripture has NOT been alter to include YHWH's name in Rev 5:13 and neither did it indicate priority (such as first then second).

The point made here in script is that YHWH is being worshipped ...ALL creatures have been accounted for.

Rev 5:13. And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, HEARD I SAYING, BLESSING, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and POWER, [be] unto HIM that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Every creature was whorshipping ...therefore, that which is worshiped must be deity since scripture only speaks of ONE deity, for beside him there is no other ...and his name is YHWH(mrya).

Have you not read and understood?:

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

justalex Wrote:Have you not read where "Jesus" said "all things have been given into my hands" so yes He would receive blessings... Did you not know that "Jesus" had "glory" as of the only begotten Son of YHWH???

Again, have you not read and understood?:

Isa 42:8 I AM the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Rev 1:8 I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I AM Alpha and Omega, the FIRST and the LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 22:12. And, behold, I COME quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I AM Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16. I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Fellow readers of scholar, is it a true an accurate statement that "no one knows exactly how to pronounce YHWH?"

Thanks ahead of time to those who reply.
whathell Wrote:
justalex Wrote:I'm guessing the answer to all the above is NO... and you still didn't answer the question... To whom did "Jesus" commit His NPhSh if He is YHWH??? HIMSELF???

Not so, I directly answered this question ...read back.

justalex Wrote:Did you miss where YHWH receives the glory FIRST then "AND the LAMB"??? Clearly two separate entities...

It did NOT say that! The scripture has NOT been alter to include YHWH's name in Rev 5:13 and neither did it indicate priority (such as first then second).

The point made here in script is that YHWH is being worshipped ...ALL creatures have been accounted for.

Rev 5:13. And EVERY CREATURE which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, HEARD I SAYING, BLESSING, and HONOUR, and GLORY, and POWER, [be] unto HIM that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Every creature was whorshipping ...therefore, that which is worshiped must be deity since scripture only speaks of ONE deity, for beside him there is no other ...and his name is YHWH(mrya).

Have you not read and understood?:

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

justalex Wrote:Have you not read where "Jesus" said "all things have been given into my hands" so yes He would receive blessings... Did you not know that "Jesus" had "glory" as of the only begotten Son of YHWH???

Again, have you not read and understood?:

Isa 42:8 I AM the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Rev 1:8 I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY.

Rev 1:11 Saying, I AM Alpha and Omega, the FIRST and the LAST: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev 22:12. And, behold, I COME quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I AM Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16. I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.



Do you not see the "AND" separating the two prepositional phrases? "unto him that sitting on the throne AND unto the LAMB" I don't know where you learned English but that represents TWO persons not one as you would have me think and its's written like that more than once in the scroll of the Apocalypse. Yes every creature was worshipping so what's your point? Matt 28:18.

YHWH did not give HIS GLory to The Son, the son already had glory BEORE he came to earth.Yahuchanan 1:14.

Rev. 19:10 is the same malak that has been telling Yahuchanan not to worshiip all along. If you say it is "Jesus" then you contradict 5:13 where everything is worshipping.

Yesha`yahu 42:8 refer back to Yahuchanan 1:14, the son already had glory "as of the only begotten on of "God".

YHWH is the ALeph and Tau. It is said again in chapter 22.

Note verse 16. Jesus sent the malak to tell John these things so you contradict what you said of 19:12. Also go back to the beginning of the chapter where the throne of "God" and of the LAMB is stated TWICE.

Once again the malak is sent from YHWH in Rev. 6.

Verse 16, "Jesus" can say this because He is the morninng ttar per Yechezq`EL, and the root of Dawid, but YHWH cannot bethe Root of Dawid because YHWH is Spirit. "Jesus" says repeatedly that His Father has given Him all things yet, when you look through these scriptures you utterly or conveniently forget that.

Remember the bible said YHWH would pay every man according to his work, not "Jesus". Tehillah 62:12 and Mishley 24:28.

Seems you stayed up late doing what could have been done at a more reasonable hour. Nevertheless, your response is noted althougyh every scripture you posted turns right back to YHWH and YAHUshuah being separate entities.


See Rev 1:1. Two entities. 1:9;
Rev 1:5-6 definitively shows two entities. "5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

Note that "Jesus" has made us kings and priest not to HImself, but to His FATHER and to The FATHER be GLORY and DOMINION FOREVER...
Now chapter 1:17 is YAHUshuah, as He was living and was dead. ABBA YHWH cannot die as HE is RUACH and HE is the one that resurrected YAHUshuah.

YAHUshuah told mary this: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

Note where He is going and to whom. His FATHER and her FATHER, HIS GOD and HER GOD.

I could continue but to what end? There are too many scripts separating the two.

Find YOUR peace, I have mine.

justalex
Also note that the "glory" of "God " was on Moshe after he came down frm Har Sinai to the point that he had to veil his face. That comes from being in close proximity of YHWH.

justalex
whathell Wrote:Fellow readers of scholar, is it a true an accurate statement that "no one knows exactly how to pronounce YHWH?"

Thanks ahead of time to those who reply.
i shall point you to this:

http://www.yahweh.org/publications/sny/sn09Chap.pdf

This is the chapter of a book. Note that i do not necessarily agree with the rest of the Book.
justalex Wrote:Do you not see the "AND" separating the two prepositional phrases? "unto him that sitting on the throne AND unto the LAMB" I don't know where you learned English but that represents TWO persons not one as you would have me think and its's written like that more than once in the scroll of the Apocalypse.

The point is the ...AND!

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

justalex Wrote:Yes every creature was worshipping so what's your point?

Only YHWH is left! No created thing is left unaccounted for. Only that which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY:

Rev 1:8 I AM Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY.

That is who is receiving praise, glory, and honor from ALL creation everywhere, per script!

justalex Wrote:YHWH did not give HIS GLory to The Son, the son already had glory BEORE he came to earth. Yahuchanan 1:14.

Reading-in is a sure sign that you're doing eisegesis(drawing in) - ie. importing your own meaning into the text (the opposite of exegesis (to draw out)).

You are making no sense:

1. YHWH has already stated "...glory will I not give to another" please keep this in mind.

2. Rev 5:13 is NOT refering to glory by proximity but to the glory ALL created beings are giving for ever and ever!

justalex Wrote:Rev. 19:10 is the same malak that has been telling Yahuchanan not to worshiip all along. If you say it is "Jesus" then you contradict 5:13 where everything is worshipping.

Exactly the point! Also, I did NOT claim this was Y'shu/Jesus (yet another eisegesis moment) ...it is NOT Y'shu/Jesus based on Rev 5:13 clearly ...it is an Angel, just as scripture indicates.

justalex Wrote:Yesha`yahu 42:8 refer back to Yahuchanan 1:14, the son already had glory "as of the only begotten on of "God".

Again, John came AFTER Isaiah, so saying "Yesha`yahu 42:8 refer BACK TO Yahuchanan 1:14" makes litte no sense.

1. Y'shu is deity (John 1:1), so "...of course" the Son had glory with the Father.

2. All this does NOT address the glory receive being from his creation through worship ...that is what Rev 5:13 is speaking of.

justalex Wrote:YHWH is the ALeph and Tau. It is said again in chapter 22.

I know it does, and Jesus is the one speaking with reference to YHWH Elohiym:

Rev 22:12. And, behold, I COME quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13. I AM Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END, the first and the last. 14. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16. I JESUS have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I AM the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Have you not read this?

justalex Wrote:Note verse 16. Jesus sent the malak to tell John these things so you contradict what you said of 19:12. Also go back to the beginning of the chapter where the throne of "God" and of the LAMB is stated TWICE.

You are wildly running with many Strawman arguments!

I never issued Rev 19:12 ...you did! However, Rev 19:12-15 is very interesting.

Anyway, Rev 22:12-13 is Y'shu/Jesus speaking (we know this from the "...I COME quickly") and therefore NOT seperated from Rev 22:16.

justalex Wrote:Once again the malak is sent from YHWH in Rev. 6.

Redifinition of scripture, again. Did the scripture invoke YHWH or did YOU?

justalex Wrote:Verse 16, "Jesus" can say this because He is the morninng ttar per Yechezq`EL, and the root of Dawid, but YHWH cannot bethe Root of Dawid because YHWH is Spirit.

Again, redefinition of scripture. "YHWH cannot be the Root of David because YHWH is Spirit" is nonsense. Y'shua is YHWH and is Spirit! This is why we will see him all over the world and be changed into our immoratal living bodies. And why at his COMING everyone on earth will see him worldwide. You have mush to learn.

You are stuck on a monolithic monotheism liken to many pagan idol deities. This is the very reason Allah has no Son. Your "FATHER-ONLY" view is NOT the deity YHWH Elohiym of bible scripture. And is why your "FATHER-ONLY" deity can have NO Son as deity.

justalex Wrote:"Jesus" says repeatedly that His Father has given Him all things yet, when you look through these scriptures you utterly or conveniently forget that.

The man(humanity) Y'shu said that ...have YOU forgotten this?.

justalex Wrote:Remember the bible said YHWH would pay every man according to his work, not "Jesus". Tehillah 62:12 and Mishley 24:28.

Mal 3:1; YHWH said he would come to the temple after one prepared the way for him. Y'shu/Jesus is the fulfilment of this.

justalex Wrote:Seems you stayed up late doing what could have been done at a more reasonable hour. Nevertheless, your response is noted althougyh every scripture you posted turns right back to YHWH and YAHUshuah being separate entities.

justalex Wrote:See Rev 1:1. Two entities. 1:9; Rev 1:5-6 definitively shows two entities. "5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."

More Strawman arguments. Father and Son as deity is known to me ...so what's

justalex Wrote:Note that "Jesus" has made us kings and priest not to HImself, but to His FATHER and to The FATHER be GLORY and DOMINION FOREVER...
Now chapter 1:17 is YAHUshuah, as He was living and was dead. ABBA YHWH cannot die as HE is RUACH and HE is the one that resurrected YAHUshuah.

YAHUshuah told mary this: "Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God

Who is this "YAHUshuah?" I know Y'shu/Jesus.

justalex Wrote:Note where He is going and to whom. His FATHER and her FATHER, HIS GOD and HER GOD.

I could continue but to what end? There are too many scripts separating the two.

Yes there are many:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be THRONES, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: ALL THINGS WERE CREATED BY HIM, AND FOR HIM:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Now Y'shu/Jesus speaking said:

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, WHICH IS, and WHICH WAS, and WHICH IS TO COME, the ALMIGHTY.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God ALMIGHTY, WHICH WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME.
Rev 4:9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast CREATED ALL things, AND FOR THY pleasure they are and were created.

Again, Y'shu as have been explained by script, has humanity as well as deity (John 1:1,14). There is nothing wrong with him stating this to his follow kinsmen. After all, he is the kinsmen redeemer.

;^)
justalex Wrote:Also note that the "glory" of "God " was on Moshe after he came down frm Har Sinai to the point that he had to veil his face. That comes from being in close proximity of YHWH.

justalex

I don't see the connection to the glory given by all creation to the Father and Son (Rev 5:13). But one thing I do see is:

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord(mrya), but by the Holy Ghost.
soneroboricua Wrote:Yeah, unfortunately I'm not apt to accept doctrines and catechisms of the rcc... that's just something I have never been able to do, however you seem capable of swallowing EVERY doctrine that passes your way... I just stick to the scriptures, not doctrines that came 451 years later...

justalex


Rafa summed this up quite nicely:

"If you don't go by what anybody else except your own understanding teaches what are you doing here wasting your time reading the scribal work of the church which preserved the vowel pointers with the correct meaning of the text ? I ask you...are you sure it's the Holy Spirit guiding your interpretation of what the scriptures say?"

Hmmm couldn't have said it any better myself, I do believe that the ACOE does not accept all the doctrines/catechisms of the rcc as well Alex(justice), getting edgy are we? Perhaps you should back away from your keyboard and make yourself a nice hot cup of tea and just relax. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->

Shlama wBurkate[/quote]
What alex was clearly saying is that scrpiture is above doctrines that were formulated later on, and that one should not ignore whenever scripture contradicts such doctrines.


Rafa Wrote:Every single Apostolic entity in the world accepts Nicea (and Constantinople I which came right after) these two councils show that you are in grave error in terms of Christology. Most conservative protestants accept the orthodoxy of the conclusions reached in these councils as well. Chalcedon clarifies the existence of two natures, but the christology you affirm (the same of the Arians) was solemnly condemned earlier by the entire Church in 325 A.D. (the Bishops of Seleukia-Ctesiphon, in 410 A.D.)
If you continue to build your theology on vain traditions, how do you expect truth? Why do you think nicea is above scripture? Can you not base your argument on scripture, or do you claim divine inspiration for dubious councils? Also, as i previously statet, nicea was, at the very best, a representation of at most 20% of the body of Christ. It was a meeting of bible ignorers, nothing more.

justalex Wrote:First I'm not Apostolic, so I don't follow Constantine's mandates. I am neither protestant, as there is nothing to protest nor orthodox. I follow the scripture, leave all of the various doctirnes of denominations with those denominations.

So in other words, you don't have any scriptures either to answer the questions posed. Well, that's fine if you don't just don't pretend that doctrines that came 451 years after MASHIACH and tells you something that He never said, is truth. Well, you can say it's truth for you, as that is what you accept, however I am more interested in finding scripture that says the same.

Thanks for your response.

justalex


Rafa Wrote:No, I gave the Christology of the entire Church which met in 325 A.D. not just that of the Bishop of Rome/ Latin rite, the Christology which received approval by every single Bishop of the Church except a handful of lonely people who were later on struck down leaving no ecclesiastical line whatsoever (meaning they were in grave heresy and disfavored by the Almighty). The Keys of heaven, the power to loose and bind given to the 318 Fathers was used to make a God breathed decision there which accurately interpreted the scriptures for us. As for "following Constantine's mandates"... the poor Emperor actually was duped by Arians into believing their Christology (not the underlying meaning but their lying words) and he sent in exile the Bishop of Alexandria Athanasius for this.
Did you forget that i previously educated you that that "handful of lonely people" was, in fact, about 1500 Bishops, 5 times as many as attended the council?

soneroboricua Wrote:We could continue on and on but for what? For those that believe, no explanation is necessary, for those that don't, no explanation is possible.
Are you saying it is impossible to impart faith???
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Since i got PM that my essay can't be downloaded, i will post it here, even if it is long.

I decided to post this publically, even if stones will be thrown. This is intended as a direct answer to justalex's request. My view of the Godhead does not correspond with the orthodox/traditional view of the trinity. If anyone feels offended, please let me know in a civilized manner.
To be fair, I will tell you about my background, though it should not matter, as we are talking about scripture, not opinion. I grew up in an Oneness Pentecostal (also called ?Apostolic Pentecostal?) Church. i am a German, and i grew up here. i do not necessarily agree with all that is promoted as oneness theology, just as none of you agrees with all that is promoted as Trinitarian theology (nine persons anyone? : <!-- s:yell: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/yell.gif" alt=":yell:" title="Yell" /><!-- s:yell: --> ), so please don?t tell me what I believe. i do, however, find the foundations of strict monotheism inescapable. I have personally engaged in a deep, thorough, and prayerful search for the truth concerning God. I have always tried to hear all sides that claim to be based solely on scripture on the issues. Interestingly, I have found that many modern ?Trinitarian? theologians do not believe that there actually is a clear model of the Godhead in the Bible. I disagree.



Introduction
In this document, I will attempt to demonstrate my understanding of God, and who Jesus is. My view of the Godhead does not directly correspond with the orthodox/traditional view of God as a trinity.
I find the foundations of strict monotheism inescapable. I have personally engaged in a deep, thorough, and prayerful search for the truth concerning God. I have always tried to hear all sides that claim to be based solely on scripture on the issues. Interestingly, I have found that many modern ?Trinitarian? theologians do not believe that there actually is a clear model of the Godhead in the Bible. I will attempt to proof them wrong with this essay.
I do not like any illogical, metaphysical, mystical, parabolic approaches, as they are never concrete and have undefined, unclear, often overlapping, meanings. If we want to know who He is, we have to be able to find that knowledge reflected in scripture and logic, not in irreproducible argument or theory.
I will give you a quick explanation of how I see God. It is impossible to address all issues in this essay, and I do not claim to have all answers, or to always use proper terminology, but I do believe to have a very solid foundation. I will attempt to make my points by scripture rather than endless, anchorless arguments.
All insertions in verses in brackets () are my commentaries

The Jews knew who God is
In John 4:22, Jesus said ?Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.?
Making this more clear:
?Ye (the Samaritans) worship ye know not what (Note: ?what?, not ?who?! This deals with nature!): we (the Jews) know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.?
I know the first argument here may be ?Well, Jesus knew the Father? etc, but that is not the point of the verse. The point is the contrast between Jews and Samaritans.

The Old Testament could not be clearer on the Oneness of God.
Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Note: if this is the Father speaking, why does he not say he is equal to the Son? If it is the Trinity speaking, why does it say ?Says the Holy One.?, not the ?Holy three.??
Isa 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Note: ?I am he? is a reference to the ?servant whom I have chosen (=Jesus)?! Why did God choose that servant? ?that ye may know (?) me? and ?understand that I am he (the chosen)?!!!
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no savior (note: this is still referring to the chosen. This identifies Jesus as YHWH.).
Isa 43:12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you (Remember: The Jews knew who God is, Jesus was that God among us. Jesus is the God that has been revealed to the Jews in the OT): therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Note: within two verses, God said that hthere is no elohim besides him, and no eloah besides him, and no tsoor (Rock) besides him. Why did he not say ?as, but there are two persons besides me though??
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Note: See notes on Isaiah 40:25.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Note: God tells us to ?Remember the former things of old?. This means he wants us to look into the past, into how it used to be. The Way He revealed Himself to the Jews.

Now, reading these verses, I cannot see how God could have been any clearer on his Oneness than he has been. Suppose there are three persons in the Godhead, how comes God never told the Jews? Remember, the Jews knew God!
Suppose there is only one being, then how could he have been clearer? If you may say ?But he did not say ?I am one Person??, then let me tell you that God is not a person in the way a human is a person. Yet, if he had said ?I am one person?, that would not have made any difference in the doctrine of the trinity. Why? Because (I am going to early church history here, so forgive the Greek. I am not doing real exegesis.), originally, God has been defined as three persons (prosopon), later this was changed to three ?hupostasis?, because the ?prosopon? position was impossible to maintain for several theological reasons.
Point being, if God would, for example, have clearly said ?I am one Person?, then, it would have been easy to find another word to agree upon to be used to describe the proposed distinction in the Godhead, for example ?three Personalities? or ?powers? or ?authorities? etc. instead of ?Persons?.
Whenever God prominently revealed an attribute of his within the Bible, he made it clear that there is only one of him. It would be nothing less than bizarre to find the Bible say anything that has the words ?God? and ?three? (or any other number but ?one?) in reference to each other. This is the reason why

God is one Person
It is often overlooked, that the Bible actually does call God a person (both prosopon and hupostasis). In Hebrews 1:3 we read:
?Who (Jesus) being the brightness of his (God?s) glory, and the express image of his (God?s) person,(?)?
Note that the word ?person? (hupostasis, better translated as ?being?, the same word used to describe the three persons of the trinity), referring to God, is singular. Saying that God is more than one person in any way directly contradicts the statement of the verse. Jesus is the express image of God?s singular person. There is nothing to indicate that God is anything else but one person in this verse.
In fact, if we assume that ?God? refers to the entire trinity, then, according to this verse, Jesus is the express image of the persons of that trinity. This is, of course, impossible, since the reference is to one person. The word is clearly in the singular form. If we assume that God in this Verse is the Father, then this verse expresses that the person of the Father is expressed in Jesus Christ, which, according to Trinitarian doctrine is another person (the Son).
This would mean that Jesus would be the revelation of at least two persons, which would be a direct contradiction of the Trinitarian doctrine. Logical problems like these move people to believe in very strange concepts, like a God revealed in nine persons and similar, if they do not have knowledge of the truth revealed in scripture.
In 1 Peter 3:12 we read ?For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face (prosopon) of the Lord is against them that do evil.?
This and other verses like it express God as one person (prosopon, also ?face?). Though prosopon typically refers to the face, it is also the only word that can be translated as ?person? that is applied to humans in the New Testament. Therefore, it is the closest word applied to humans used in the New Testament to the English word ?person?. Again, the singular form is always used when used to refer to God. The mere absence of a plural application to God reveals that God is one prosopon.

Jesus is God
The Bible clearly states that Jesus is God in multiple instances:
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

The Bible also does not hesitate to identify Jesus with the Father:
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Jesus was a man
The scripture clearly shows that Jesus was a man and that he was subject to the weaknesses of the human nature. For example, he hungered (Mt. 4:2), thirsted (John 19:28), died (Mk. 15:37), grew mentally, physically and spiritually (Lk. 2:52), and much more.

God is invisible
The Bible is very clear about God?s invisibility. It even expresses the impossibility of perceiving God:
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
1Jn 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jesus is the perfect expression towards humans of the otherwise invisible God
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Explanation
Now that I have sufficiently established all the facts necessary for my concise explanation, I will do this with all previously established points in mind. Because of that, I will not bother with scripture references.
God is one, indivisible, invisible, unreachable, the absolute origin of all things. He revealed himself in his creation in many ways. When he created light and darkness, he chose to reveal himself as light. When he created good and evil, he chose to reveal himself as good. When he created man, he knew he will one day come to reveal himself as the Messiah.
Now, God, throughout history, communicated with men in many ways. He was revealed in the burning bush, as a hand writing on a wall, as the angel of the Lord, as the one sitting on the throne in heaven, and many more. But, all these revelations of God were only symbols to mankind. None of these could really make man see eye to eye with God. Yet, God had the desire to fellowship with men. This is one of the purposes of the incarnation.
Though God has revealed himself to several people throughout history in the form of a man (e.g. Abraham, Jacob), he never truly was a man in these encounters. It was still a rather distant God merely using a human image like a puppeteer uses a puppet. However, the incarnation was about to change this.
When humans tell stories of things unknown to them, they will project human characteristics onto that thing. Like, if we tell a story about animals, we will use us as a reference point to evaluate the actions of these animals. The results of this are so-called anthropomorphisms. Animals will wear human clothes, express human character traits and so forth. This is because humans only truly understand that which is human. God, of course, knows this.
If in Rome, do as the Romans do. That is not only wise to us, but God did the same thing. But, instead of merely puppeteering a human body, God decided to reveal all of himself in a human that can fit into a human. Since we, as humans, think in human terms, feel with human emotions, act with human limitations, etc., such a revelation would be the very highest revelation of God possibly perceivable to us.
This was God?s intention for the incarnation. To truly be revealed in a man, God had to be born of a woman, and be subjected to the limitations of any other man. Yet, all the fullness of the Godhead was manifest in the flesh and dwelt among us. At any given time, Jesus reflected the invisible God, yet within the limitations of humanity.
The revelation of Jesus Christ trumps all other possible revelations of God towards humans. Yet, God is not a man, and a man cannot be God (Numbers 23:19). And this is where all misunderstandings come from: The understanding of the sonship.

Distinction, separation, plurality, submission
If Jesus is God, why can we find verses that show distinction, separation, submission, even plurality with reference to the father?
This is actually rather simple. Since Jesus was not only 100% God, but also 100% human, that human nature, which could only reveal so much of God?s being, was submitted to the invisible, eternal God. God is not a human, but the man Jesus is the best possible, ideal representation of God as a human. This human nature of Christ, however, is distinguishable from God?s nature, as previously shown (?Jesus is God? and ?Jesus is man?).
The Bible also says that ?there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;? (1Timothy 2:5). So, Jesus is the middle ground between God and humans. He is the bridge crossing the gap, a compatible interface to access God for our limited understanding.
The fully human part of Christ, born of a woman, was, of course, subject to God. If we wish to establish terminology, we could say, that the human nature was subject to the divine nature. If we wish to apply the term ?person?, one would have to clearly realize, that God is not a person in any human sense, so the limited human personality of Jesus was subject to the unlimited divine personality, which is far more complex than a human could ever be. It has to be understood, that these two natures are completely different from each other, and so we cannot say ?God has/is two persons/natures?, but rather, God is one, and the man Jesus is subject to him.
God can speak of himself as ?I?, referring to his divine nature (or person, if you wish), while Jesus can refer to himself as ?I?, referring to his human nature (or person, if you wish), and this is why Jesus uses the plural ?we? when he refers to himself and God.
So, for example, when Jesus was praying, it was not one almighty (or almost almighty) person of the trinity praying to another, but rather a man praying to God.
This man was humble, sometimes tired, had weaknesses, needed to pray, as any other man. Yet, in him, the almighty God was revealed.

Conclusion
As I attempted to demonstrate, God is one. He revealed himself as Jesus Christ, who is the highest revelation of God a human can possibly perceive. However, since he was limited by human nature, he was also subject to the invisible, unknowable, unapproachable Father. The very word ?son? in reference to him suggests submission to the Father. Jesus acted both as God and as human.


Appendix : Excerpt from the ?Worldwide Pentecostal Fellowship Articles of Faith?:
God in his essential being is, invisible (John 1:18, I Timothy 1:17) unknowable (Luke 10:22, Matthew 11:27) immaterial (John 4:24) omnipresent (Psalm 139:7-12) is one in number and unity (Deuteronomy 6:4) is Father of the universe as Creator / Progenitor ( Isaiah 63:16, 9:6, Psalm 89:26) and Paternally to humanity as Nurturer and Caregiver (Psalm 103:13, Matthew 9:6).
The Word is God self-revealing (John.1:1-3), God?s self-disclosure of himself (Hebrew1:1-3, Isaiah 9:6), God going out from himself (Revelation 5:6,7) God proceeding or emanating, the one whose ?goings forth? have been from of old, from everlasting. (Micah 5:2 Revelation 1:8).
Jesus Christ is the Word become flesh (John 1: 1, 14 Micah 5:2), God manifest in the flesh (I Timothy 3:16), the image of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15), and in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily (Colossians 2:9). He is God visible (Hebrews 1:1-3) knowable, (John. 14:8), approachable (Matthew 11:28-30) touchable (I John. 1:1-3, John. 20:27), is the revealer of the Father (John. 14:9, 17:6) the only way to the Father (Matthew 11:27, John. 14:6-8) and the Father revealed (John.10:30, Isaiah.9:6, Revelation 1:8, 11). He is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come (Revelation 1:8). He is also complete human (Heb. 2:10-18), the true son of Mary (Matthew 2:1, Luke 2:33, 34, Gal. 4:4), the second man Adam (I Corinthians 15:47), the last Adam (I Corinthians 15:45) and the Son of God by both birth (Luke 1:35, Rom. 1:3) and declaration (Rom. 1:4, Acts 13:33). His victory over death, hell, and the grave (I Corinthians 15:1-4) elevates the name of Jesus to the position of highest universal authority. The full power and authority of the Godhead is encapsulated in that name (John 5:43, Philippians 2:9, John 14:13, 14, 26, Acts 4:12).
The Holy Spirit is God indwelling the believer in personal agency, (Jeremiah 31:31-33, Romans 8:9), is one Spirit (I Corinthians 12:13), is the Spirit of Grace, (Hebrews 10:29) , is the Spirit of God (Romans 8:9) is the Spirit of Jesus (John 14:17, 18, Acts 16:7, II Corinthians 3:17), is the source of and medium for dispensing God?s grace in the Church Age. (Acts 2:38, I Corinthians 12:l) and is essential for salvation (Acts 2:36-38, 11:14, Romans 8:9).
Quote:As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!
-Galatians 1:9
So nicea mus be accursed, as it clearly contradicts the Bible.
Andrej wrote:

Are you saying it is impossible to impart faith???
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I believe you misread my post, all I am saying is the same exact thing that you quoted from scripture, Faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God, and if you believe you have faith right? If you don't believe, then obviously you don't have faith, and nothing no one says to the individual, they will not believe, so therefore there is no faith. The individual I posted this to has been nothing but combative here, He asks for scripture showing Y'shua is YHWH, and when you post scripture, then he comes chiming in on how you're wrong that it shows two entities.

Shlama wBurkate
Thank you Andrej for that indepth study. However for me questions remain. Who was talking from heaven after Jesus was baptized? After His transfiguration? This would mean in essence that "god" was talking to and about "HIMSELF", which in my mind makes no sense since HE never did so before but talked to the prophets before.

You'll notice that satan always says, if you are the son of "god" etc. Surely satan knew the son and the FATHER before the son came to earth because it was through/by (it's listed both ways) the son that all things were made, including satan.

Jesus cried out "into your hands I commit my spirit". His spirit would have to be "God's" spirit if he were "god" So was he committing His spirit back to Himself?

And lastly because I worked alte and I'm exhausted. "Jesus" said , "esteem me as I was esteemed "with" YOU before the creation of the earth". This shows that "Jesus" and the FATHER were together before the creation of the earth, however not that he was the FATHER.

For the rest of the the epeople that posted, thank you for you time however I posted only to Andrej as he seems out of the group, the least likely to have a contentious and argumentative spirit. If I am wrong, between his and my conversation, perhaps he will be able to show me what you cannot so I ask that you allow us to continue in peace without the distractions of "personalities" getting in the way. As it stands right now, I won't bother with other posters on this issue anyway so at least do not clutter the board with posts that won't be answered.

Again thanks Andrej, you are a man of your word and I salute you for that.

justalex
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