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Shlama distazo,

Quote:I don't know where I have read this, but take the Chaldean god 'marduk' what that not be alike? Mar-Duk? (Lord-Duk)
B.t.w. it's unknown what the exact meaning of this name, but it happens to be that in Russian, something like that, 'ducha' means 'spirit' So Mar-Duk could mean Lord of the Spirit. But, that only would be valid if 'duk' is derived from an ancestor of the Russian people.

This name might be the same as "Merodach." Quoting Alexander Hislop's 'The Two Babylons'... Now, as the
tower-building was the first act of open rebellion after the flood, and Cush, as Bel, was the
ringleader in it, he was, of course, the first to whom the name Merodach, "The great Rebel," *
must have been given, and, therefore, according to the usual parallelism of the prophetic
language, we find both names of the Babylonian god referred to together, when the judgment
on Babylon is predicted: "Bel is confounded: Merodach is broken in pieces" (Jer 1:2).
* Merodach comes from Mered, to rebel; and Dakh, the demonstrative pronoun affixed, which
makes it emphatic, signifying "That" or "The great."
The judgment comes upon the Babylonian god according to what he had done. As Bel, he
had "confounded" the whole earth, therefore he is "confounded." As Merodach, by the
rebellion he had stirred up, he had "broken" the united world in pieces; [I PRESUME HE'S TALKING ABOUT THE BREAK-UP DUE TO THE CONFUSION OF LANGUAGES THAT OCCURRED AT BABEL] therefore he himself is
"broken in pieces."

Bro. Larry
In response to Jeremy's statement:

Quote:you can see that MARYA was used to translate a few different terms in the Peshitta AN"K. most were indeed speaking of the Creator YHWH

Simply incorrect! Every single reference is indeed speaking of The Creator YHWH. "YAH" & "Ha Adon" are references to YHWH in every place listed. "Adonim" and "Marye" in Isaiah 19:4 are plural forms (Lords,Masters) and referring to The King of Egypt. "Marye", the plural form is not "Marya". It is the plural of "Mara", which is a title, not the Sacred Name. Even in Psalm 114:7, the only place listed that does not have "YAH" or "YHWH" in the corresponding Hebrew text, we do not know that the Hebrew manuscript that was being translated did not have YHWH in that place in the text when the Peshitta Psalms were translated. Regardless, "Marya" has not been shown to identify anyone but YHWH in any of the more than six thousand and six hundred places in which it occurs in the Peshitta OT.

The Peshitta OT unanimously and unequivocally demonstrates that "Marya" refers to YHWH, and to YHWH alone. This is not true of the Greek "Kurios".
Therefore, there is no case to be made for the NT usage of Marya to represent anyone but YHWH, and so when the Name identifies Yeshua Meshikha, it identifies Him as YHWH, which happens at least thirty two times in the 27 Aramaic books of the NT.

Shlama b'Shema

Dave Bauscher
I thought I responded to this earlier but perhaps I hit the wrog button...

Rafa, just as you use the "bibles" that promote Aramaic primacy, you must understand that while some will agree that the scrolls were not written in Greek, they are not Aramaic primacists either. For you to show such blatant disdain for something just because you have a lack of knowledge of it tells one that you are either very immature, or that your belief system sits on loam.

If the word Yahuchanan is the only thing you took from my post, it is obvious that you read it looking for fault instead of to answer the question (of note is that you didn't even mention any of the passages). If you don't have an answer then what really was the reason to quote any of it at all?

I have seen twice in these "forums" that when the thought patterns don't line up with the pre-conditioned notions of what is correct, the snobbery of the farushiym shows as in the days of YAHUshuah Himself. In all this time since His ascension and your studies, is that as much as you have learned from the katub?

JustAlex
gbausc Wrote:In response to Jeremy's statement:

Quote:you can see that MARYA was used to translate a few different terms in the Peshitta AN"K. most were indeed speaking of the Creator YHWH

Simply incorrect! Every single reference is indeed speaking of The Creator YHWH. "YAH" & "Ha Adon" are references to YHWH in every place listed. "Adonim" and "Marye" in Isaiah 19:4 are plural forms (Lords,Masters) and referring to The King of Egypt. "Marye", the plural form is not "Marya". It is the plural of "Mara", which is a title, not the Sacred Name. Even in Psalm 114:7, the only place listed that does not have "YAH" or "YHWH" in the corresponding Hebrew text, we do not know that the Hebrew manuscript that was being translated did not have YHWH in that place in the text when the Peshitta Psalms were translated. Regardless, "Marya" has not been shown to identify anyone but YHWH in any of the more than six thousand and six hundred places in which it occurs in the Peshitta OT.

The Peshitta OT unanimously and unequivocally demonstrates that "Marya" refers to YHWH, and to YHWH alone. This is not true of the Greek "Kurios".
Therefore, there is no case to be made for the NT usage of Marya to represent anyone but YHWH, and so when the Name identifies Yeshua Meshikha, it identifies Him as YHWH, which happens at least thirty two times in the 27 Aramaic books of the NT.

Shlama b'Shema

Dave Bauscher

Shlama Dave,


thanks for clarifying your position. i stand almost totally corrected (i'm still somewhat reserved, but sincerely moved closer to what you suggest), but i do have to wonder, however, about Isaiah 19:4, as it is speaking of the singular king, which you also mention, yet it uses a plural form in the Hebrew, and as you suggest, in the Aramaic. but we also have the witness of Malachi 1:6 wherein Yah uses ADONEEM in reference to Himself, and if i'm reading the AN"K right, there is a variant even there which has MARYA/MARYE or MARA. obviously, ADONEEM makes no sense to be taken literally plural in that context, when only Yah is speaking, so perhaps the contested passage from Isaiah 19:4 could be understood in the same manner, as well. every translation i've ever seen of that verse renders it in the singular, as well. just a possibility, sense there seems to be some leeway.

and to add to the witness of Psalm 114:7, it is NOT the only place listed without a corresponding "YAH" or "YAHWEH," as Malachi showed -- there is also Joshua 3:11, which reads ADOWN in the Hebrew, and MARYA MAREH in the AN"K, as well as the aforementioned Malachi 3:1, again, not to be overlooked from my previous post, which reads HaADOWN in the Hebrew, and d'MARYA in the AN"K, which appears to be some scribal dynamics at work there, since it somewhat changes the intent of the Hebrew text.
i find myself being cautious in saying that a translation is correct over the original language when there is no variant to suggest otherwise, only the witness of the translation. of course, that is only my opinion, but i don't see resorting to such an argument as really helpful in any way, since it is an argument that cannot be substantiated. since the AN"K seems to align even with the original readings before the tikkuney hasoferim took place, then any discrepancies outside of the tikkuney and extant variants makes it seem like those discrepancies are just that, and not preservations of an earlier reading -- see what i mean? but again, just my thoughts...

in this whole MARYA debacle, i've also run across two instances where the Peshitta AN"K chose not to render YHWH in the translation at all, like in Isaiah 1:24, which reads HaADOWN YHWH in the Hebrew, but MARA MARUWTHA in the Aramaic, and the exact same situation is present in 3:1. we're dealing with a translation, so attention must be paid to the details (i speak of course to myself, as well -- who has not at present devoted all that much time to the AN"K -- most has been towards the Peshitta NT). anyhow, it is significant to me that two places (perhaps there are more, as again, i haven't done any comprehensive study) omit the Name entirely in the translation.

more to think about!


Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
Rafa Wrote:Who is "YAHUshuah" if I may ask ?


Dave, Jeremy, on a more important note, I have read an astonishing article concerning the DSS and it's relationship to Peshitta Tanakh. The scrolls were found in the 9th century by Timothy I ! Here :

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=5135">http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/?p=5135</a><!-- m -->

Hi Rafa,

As you might know from the internet, some say to have restored the YAHU part of Gods name.
eg. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.yahu2.com/">http://www.yahu2.com/</a><!-- m -->
Rafa Wrote:
Quote:as in the days of YAHUshuah Himself.

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God ."

-Matthew 16:15-16


Who is "YAHUshuah" if I may ask ?


Rafa, since it appears that you have a problem with what I type I will make this my last correspondence to you as it seems you seek strife and contentiousness not shalom and ahaba...

Do you know what the origin of the word "christ" is? If you do, why do you quote it, if you don't, it behooves you to look it up...

After saying that, does anyone have a response to the scriptures out of Yahuchanan 5 that I asked about? If not, it is quite alright, it just means the answer YHWH has for me is not in these forums.

Thanks, justalex
justalex Wrote:I asked a question in another forum about the following passages: Yahuchanan 5:19-23, 5:30-32, 5:36-38, 5:43-44. Before I asked about these verses Andrej had stated that perhaps I had a "wrong concept of sonship". Whenever someone makes a statement about anything in the absence of facts (in this case Andrej knows absolutely nothing about me or my belief system) it is just subjective opinion and I look upon it as such.

Usually because they cannot truly answer the question presented or they do not like their ideology questioned, (in this case I fear it was a case of both) people will attempt the old ad hominem fallacy of attacking the person (that also appears to be the case in relation to the website also). If you were/are or wanted to persuade this person that they were in error, how would you go about it: by making snide and snobbish remarks about him (where is the unconditional love in that?) or presenting the emet YHWH without bias? Surely the latter would attract more bees than would the vinegar of the words I have seen in this forum.
Dear justalex,
i deeply apologize that i seemed snobbish and loveless and cold. i had no such intention. i usually work 10 hours a day, have a family to take care of, am enrolled in a bible school, where i am student body president, i am the leader of my church's IT, sound, media and technical departments, i regularily help people with their PC problems, moved to a new appartment 3 weeks ago (which is a construction site), and am preparing to start my own business in the near future, besides other things. i did not have the time to give you a full, expanded answer, and i thought quickly dropping the thought may be helpful. i see it was not. i ask you to forgive me and not to hold it against me in the future.
As you correctly remember, i made my remark before i knew any detail of your situation. As all you offered was that you cannot directly currently agree that YHWH is Yeshua, i thought demonstrating that Yeshua is revealed as God, Lord, etc. will help. i may also have mentionned that for most of my examples, there are verses to support that there is only one, e.g. king, saviour, etc. i should also note that Yeshua is identified as YHWH in the NT, even if you disregard the Peshitta. i suggested a problem with you concept of sonship, as i myself hold a rather unorthodox belief in this regard, and see that it is the major problem of any theological misunderstanding.
i apologize again for being disrespectfully concise. i will, however, give you a full and detailed answer as soon as possible now that i know you want/require it. i may try tonight, depending when i come home from a PC repair.
Shlama Jeremy,

?And the Egyptians will I give into the hands of Adonim qasheh? (cruel lords) ; ?Marye? pronounced ?Maryay? is plural also (lords). Are you suggesting that YHWH will deliver the Egyptians unto YHWH? Is YHWH the cruel Master and the fierce King spoken of?
If so, Adonim refers to YHWH and Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form, with identical meaning. If not, (and I cannot believe this does refer to YHWH), Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form with identical meaning. In either case, Maryay is not Marya. Maryay is a plural title, as is Adonim.
Marya is The Name of God.
Joshua 3:11 does present a case where the Massoretic Hebrew has ?Adon? and The Peshitta has Marya, but is there any doubt that ?The Lord of all the earth? is YHWH?
You have yet to show one place where Marya (not plural Maryay) refers to anyone but YHWH.

It was not my object to assert the Peshitta reading in Psalms 114:7 necessarily reflects the original to be YHWH, only that the Hebrew manuscript from which the Peshitta was translated may have had YHWH at that place; we cannot know; we can only guess. It also was not my purpose to prove that YHWH always translates to Marya, only that Marya always translates YHWH or identifies YHWH.

It would a mistake to think that since ?Adon? was translated with ?Marya? (if indeed it was) in a few places, and also translated as ?Mara?, and that since YHWH is also translated as Marya and as Mara in a few places, that Mara and Marya are the same, even as it would be a mistake to think ?Adon? and YHWH have the same meaning, since both are apparently translated with ?Marya? in any number of cases. Even if YHWH was translated as Mara in a few places, which cannot be proved, the fact remains that wherever we find ?Marya? in the Peshitta OT, it identifies The Deity -YHWH.

We do know that the Massoretes altered ?YHWH? in at least 134 places to ?Adonai? in the TaNaK. They documented this in the Massorahs found in Hebrew mss, and were compiled by David Ginsburg.
I have listed all the references at the end of my interlinear translation of the Peshitta Psalms & Proverbs. Bullinger's Companion Bible also has these in the appendix.

The bottom line is that Marya always identifies YHWH, never any other.
Considering that Marya occurs over 6,600 times in the Peshitta Tanak, that has to count for something.
Taybutha b'Shemah d'Marya Yeshua,

Dave
Andrej, the post about being snobbish was not directed to you at all but to someone else that didn't bother to even attempt to answer the question, just replied with an self-perceived air of superiority. I appreciated your answer I just said that you didn't address the scriptures from "John" 5 that I had mentioned.

Either way, I understand the long hours so I can empathize with you... Just post your reply whenever you are up to snuff and actually feel like it... And above all, take of your self... you cannot be a soldier in the Kingdom if you wear yourself to thin...

Thanks, justalex
gbausc Wrote:Shlama Jeremy,

?And the Egyptians will I give into the hands of Adonim qasheh? (cruel lords) ; ?Marye? pronounced ?Maryay? is plural also (lords). Are you suggesting that YHWH will deliver the Egyptians unto YHWH? Is YHWH the cruel Master and the fierce King spoken of?
If so, Adonim refers to YHWH and Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form, with identical meaning. If not, (and I cannot believe this does refer to YHWH), Maryay (plural) translates the plural Adonim with the most appropriate Aramaic word in the plural form with identical meaning. In either case, Maryay is not Marya. Maryay is a plural title, as is Adonim.
Marya is The Name of God.
Joshua 3:11 does present a case where the Massoretic Hebrew has ?Adon? and The Peshitta has Marya, but is there any doubt that ?The Lord of all the earth? is YHWH?
You have yet to show one place where Marya (not plural Maryay) refers to anyone but YHWH.

It was not my object to assert the Peshitta reading in Psalms 114:7 necessarily reflects the original to be YHWH, only that the Hebrew manuscript from which the Peshitta was translated may have had YHWH at that place; we cannot know; we can only guess. It also was not my purpose to prove that YHWH always translates to Marya, only that Marya always translates YHWH or identifies YHWH.

It would a mistake to think that since ?Adon? was translated with ?Marya? (if indeed it was) in a few places, and also translated as ?Mara?, and that since YHWH is also translated as Marya and as Mara in a few places, that Mara and Marya are the same, even as it would be a mistake to think ?Adon? and YHWH have the same meaning, since both are apparently translated with ?Marya? in any number of cases. Even if YHWH was translated as Mara in a few places, which cannot be proved, the fact remains that wherever we find ?Marya? in the Peshitta OT, it identifies The Deity -YHWH.

We do know that the Massoretes altered ?YHWH? in at least 134 places to ?Adonai? in the TaNaK. They documented this in the Massorahs found in Hebrew mss, and were compiled by David Ginsburg.
I have listed all the references at the end of my interlinear translation of the Peshitta Psalms & Proverbs. Bullinger's Companion Bible also has these in the appendix.

The bottom line is that Marya always identifies YHWH, never any other.
Considering that Marya occurs over 6,600 times in the Peshitta Tanak, that has to count for something.
Taybutha b'Shemah d'Marya Yeshua,

Dave


Hi dave, isn't marya applied to "Thomas" in one instance in the bible??? As I recall, some women wanted to see Moshiach and they approched "Thomas" I can't give you book and script right now as I'm at work and I have all that at home however I will find it as soon as I can. Be in peace.

Thanks, justalex
Shlama Everyone,

I have a question and I hope I do not come off as sounding dumb, I am a newbie to the Aramaic and after reading all of this information on this subject, my question is if it spelled Marya then why the "H" at the end?
I thank whomever answers my question in advance.

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Everyone,

I have a question and I hope I do not come off as sounding dumb, I am a newbie to the Aramaic and after reading all of this information on this subject, my question is if it spelled Marya then why the "H" at the end?
I thank whomever answers my question in advance.

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua

I'm just learning to read Hebrew, but Halleluja, in the Syriac revelation (Crawford), also is written without the H at the end while everybody agrees, that it means 'Yah' at the end.

HLLWYA
Rafa Wrote:
Quote:If the word Yahuchanan is the only thing you took from my post, it is obvious that you read it looking for fault instead of to answer the question (of note is that you didn't even mention any of the passages). If you don't have an answer then what really was the reason to quote any of it at all?


I'm still trying to figure out what the most learned master of Aramaic "Yeremyah Natzraya" , the great Peshitta scribe of a millenarian family of Bishops and Patriarchs at "Natzraya.org" is trying to say with "Yahuchanan " to his followers which we poor mortals can't figure out. I mean mr.natzraya is mercifully trying to teach us ignoramuses the proper form of the full or abbreviated name of God, surely he can tell us what "Yahuchanan" and "YAHUshuah" is first too right ? Maran Yeshua (namely the Christ) I know, St. Paul (Rav Shaul) I know but "YAHUshuah" I don't know. So please tell me what "YAHUshuah" is according to mr.natzraya then get back to teaching the abbreviation of the Name of God which is a much more serious matter and needs somebody quite qualified for. Until then, we cannot risk taking God's name in vain by clever questions like "what is MarYah" and so forth.


I could respond in the same rude manner that you have however that woud make me like you. According to Yesha`yahu all of my righteousness is nothing but a filthy rag so I know I need help. Thank goodness for the person that was kind enough to send me a response in a private note that pretty much answered my question and with that I leave you to your self.

just alex
Hi again Dave,

I found where Thomas is called "marya" in the Peshitta text. It is found in Yahuchanan/"John" 12:2-21 for those with a contentious NPhSh. So your statement that "marya" is only used for YHWH isn't quite accurate... We should all continue to study the scripture so we can all find ourselvs pleasing in the eyes of YHWH.

thank, justalex
distazo Wrote:
soneroboricua Wrote:Shlama Everyone,

I have a question and I hope I do not come off as sounding dumb, I am a newbie to the Aramaic and after reading all of this information on this subject, my question is if it spelled Marya then why the "H" at the end?
I thank whomever answers my question in advance.

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua

I'm just learning to read Hebrew, but Halleluja, in the Syriac revelation (Crawford), also is written without the H at the end while everybody agrees, that it means 'Yah' at the end.

HLLWYA



Thank you for the reply, could you please tell me where I can find this Syriac Revelation (Crawford)

Shlama wBurkate

SoneroBoricua
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