Ben Masada Wrote:Burning one Wrote:Shlama akhay,
WHAT THE RABBONIM SAY ABOUT MOSHIACH, by Douglas Pyle
I bought this a couple months back, read it quickly and passed it on to share. i recently received it back, and after going over it again a bit slower, find it to be a really great testimony towards Yeshuwa as the Messiah. there are ample witnesses from the TN"K, Talmuds, Midrashim, rabbonim, targumim, etc. that display the ancient Hebrew perception of Messiah so very well. the book never actually mentions Yeshuwa, but it doesn't have to, since it is so clear from examples given who the Messiah would have to be.
some of the actual passages from the TN"K wherein the rabbonim relate to Messiah i had personally never considered before, so it is interesting to see their method of exegesis -- very similar in style of Paulus', i noticed. i'd like to compare with the AN"K and see if those derivations can still be applied, and also with the targum readings for those places, just to try to get an idea as to how they came up with some of them.
it is not as comprehensive in nature as Raphael Patai's THE MESSIAH TEXTS, which is also a very great compilation, so this book is easier to get through in one setting.
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy
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This book, "What the Rabbonim say about Moshiach," you assume it to be talking about Jesus because of your preconditional notions you bring to the book as you read it. For example, when you read Isaiah 53, of course all you have in your mind is Jesus. However, if you focus your attention as you read it, the point is about the Suffering Servant, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel by name, so that we don't have to assume that the Messiah could be an individual. (Isa. 41:8,9; and 44:1,2,21) Besides, if you could use Logic, for the Messiah to be an individual, it would not make sense. The individual is born, lives his span of life and then dies. Are we to expect a Messiah in every generation? It makes no sense. The Messiah does not die, and this is possible only if we think of the collective Messiah in the People of Israel. After all, God promised David that Israel would stay forever as a lamp in Jerusalem. (I Kings 11:36) And Jeremiah compared Israel's permanence as a People before the Lord to the natural laws. (Jer. 31:35,36)
Shlama,
first off, thanks for the above bolded/underlined. i'm more interested in going the CHaBaD route anyway, personally, as Scripture suggests, so that is probably why i am not using the logic you prefer. Logic is a bit too Greek a times for my taste, even though i confess i've surely spent enough of my life pandering to logic. but if that is your cup of tea, i'm not preventing you from drinking it.
as to the content of your reply, however:
perhaps you should read the book itself and see what the rabbonim actually say -- not the new-fangled ideas that are popular in counter-missionary positions, mind you, but the
ancient understandings of the particular chapter of which you speak. they refer to this not as the NATION, but as a man - the Messiah. if you want to believe otherwise, that is fine, but you're hard pressed to retain the title of
Baal Teshuvah, since you'd not technically have returned to the understandings of your ancient rabbonim, but instead, you'd be in the same camp of Judaism as you've elsewhere on this site placed Paulus -- making up his own form to fit his understanding.
i do so hope you don't go that route, however, and even if you don't want to pay any attention to the ancient rabbonim, maybe you would attend to the words of the prophet YeshaYahu himself in this very chapter, which make it hard pressed even more so to see Israel the Nation as the suffering servant described here.
the chapter repeatedly speaks of this inidividual as a "he" and in the singular. but you've taken the more recent approach and applied it to the nation itself. so let's look at it a little and see if your position holds up Scripturally:
verse 4: He bore peoples sicknesses and carried pains.
thought for the day: can a nation do this?
verse 5: He was pierced for our transgressions, crushed for wickednesses, the chastisement for our peace was on him, and we are healed by his stripes.
thought for the day: when is Israel pierced for transgressions, crushed for our sins, and all the rest?
verse 6: the Holy One laid on him the crookedness of all
thought for the day: is Israel the vicarious sacrifice for everyone else? how so?
verse 8a: As for his generation...
thought for the day: who is "Israel's" generation here?
verse 8b: for the transgression of My people he was stricken.
thought for the day: I thought Israel was the people of the Holy One? the above passages clearly speak of a vicarious nature of this suffering, and yet here your position makes it seem that the Holy One struck His people in place of His people? that doesn't fit at all. even Greek logic fails here.
verse 9: he was appointed a grave with the wrong
thought for the day: Israel died? i am under the impression that Am Yisrael Chai...
verse 10: he made himself an offering for guilt.
thought for the day: this is quite a bit more than just a single man dying for Am Yisrael vicariously, rather, it puts the entire nation of Israel dying for itself, vicariously. again, even Greek logic is stumped on this one.
and i'll stop there for now. i do not see the NATION as being the suffering servant here - but as the text otherwise clearly indicates -- a man, a single human life. the ancient rabbonim didn't see the nation as the suffering servant here, either, but the life of the Messiah. you can hold whatever position you like, but i think if we let the Word and the ancient rabbis speak for themselves, we realize that it is, to quote your own words, "
your preconditional notions you bring to the Book" that lead you to your current understanding.
note: i capitalized the "B" in the above "book" to stress the point. i don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth, so my action is here stated plainly.
Chayim b'Moshiach,
Jeremy