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1 Corinthinans 10:11 reads (in English versions, following the greek) "...on whom the end of the age/world has come"
IIUC some variants read ages/worlds
Murdock reads "end of the world " Etheridge reads "ends(plural) of the world (singular). Lamsa reads "fulfillment of the ages (plural).

How does the peshitta read, and is there an explanation for the variants in the greek versions?
Shalom uvrachot, judge.

I am certainly not familiar with Aramaic to the extent of Mr. Younan, or Mr. Roth, but I'm pretty certain that this is a singular noun form in Aramaic. It is "alma" which, unless I'm mistaken, we would expect to be "almin" or "almaya" if it were plural. However, there do seem to be some cases where a simple aleph suffix does indicate a plural.

Sorry this isn't very helpful. Like I said, I don't know much Aramaic.

Shalom,
David
Shlama Akhi Judge,

I may be able to clear this up somewhat. I haven't looked at the Greek in years, but I am pretty sure AION means both "world/age" and also appears the same way in singular and plural states which may go a long way to explaining influence on various translators.

Dawid is correct that AILMIN is the plural of ALMA. But it's not totally that simple. In Hebraic thought, the end of THIS WORLD (olam hazeh) means not just the end of THIS age but the end of ALL AGES OF HUMANITY. In that kind of interpretive paradigm it would be easy from my view to understand why a Jewish translator would think AGES even if the word were singular.

Of course, none of these men were Jewish, but Lamsa was a Semite and he inheritied a lot of that nuance. Etheridge wasn't jewish either but look at how he translates--with as many Semitic forms as possible. When reading Etheridge in both his NT and the Targums it is clear he really absorbed that culture and assumed its values in many areas that come out in his writing. Murdock not so much, so he takes a more literal approach.

Hope this helps!
Here is what Dave Bauscher's translation has ("The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English", Lulu Publishing 2009):

11. But all these things that occurred to them were for our example and it
was written for our admonition, for their end of the world has come
upon us.
(I believe Paul was writing of the destruction of the nation of Israel. He was writing specifically to the Jewish
believers, according to verse 1. Even as the Israelites were destroyed in the wilderness of Sin, so the nation under Rome
would be destroyed because of sin. He was not speaking of the absolute end of the world for all people. )
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Shlama Akhi Judge,

In Hebraic thought, the end of THIS WORLD (olam hazeh) means not just the end of THIS age but the end of ALL AGES OF HUMANITY. In that kind of interpretive paradigm it would be easy from my view to understand why a Jewish translator would think AGES even if the word were singular.



Hope this helps!

Firstly thanks to Dawid and Ograabe and Andrew for their answers. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
One question about this Andrew. Can you perhaps give a little more information as to where this idea might appear in Jewish thought?

I know Isaiah 65 and 66 has humanity still around after the new heavens and the new earth (as does Rev 21-22)

Quote:17 "Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.

19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
he who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere youth;
he who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed


and that 2 Peter (which may or may not represent Hebraic thought) has a so called "world" being destroyed but humanity surviving.

Quote:6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed

Thanks in advcance for any help you can offer <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Shlama Akhi Judge,

I may be able to clear this up somewhat. I haven't looked at the Greek in years, but I am pretty sure AION means both "world/age" and also appears the same way in singular and plural states which may go a long way to explaining influence on various translators.

Dawid is correct that AILMIN is the plural of ALMA. But it's not totally that simple. In Hebraic thought, the end of THIS WORLD (olam hazeh) means not just the end of THIS age but the end of ALL AGES OF HUMANITY. In that kind of interpretive paradigm it would be easy from my view to understand why a Jewish translator would think AGES even if the word were singular.

Of course, none of these men were Jewish, but Lamsa was a Semite and he inheritied a lot of that nuance. Etheridge wasn't jewish either but look at how he translates--with as many Semitic forms as possible. When reading Etheridge in both his NT and the Targums it is clear he really absorbed that culture and assumed its values in many areas that come out in his writing. Murdock not so much, so he takes a more literal approach.

Hope this helps!
Shalom!
Hm. I hadn't thought of that explanation, Akhi. I wonder if we could fine any comments the translators made that would help us to know if that's why they did that.
Shlama all--

I don't feel comfortable answering this. I don't like that you guys posted Bauscher's translation and his comment that only Jews would or have or should have been destroyed but the rest of humanity is somehow blessed. I also don't think it's fair comment on all Italian-Romans either. So we either bash Jews or bash Catholics?

That is extremely insensitive, especially given the hateful and racist things this man has said. Anyone who doesn't believe me should simply check here for his own words. I will NOT be a party to a discussion where such views are posted with neutrality.

To answer briefly the two questions on this:

1) No, there are no translator notes in Lamsa, Etheridge and Murdock that I am aware of that speak to this issue. I was simply looking at their writing styles and making a suggestion.

2) I never said humans would not exist. I said specifically that it was the end of all human ages. Once Y'shua comes back, yes humans are still here, but we enter the MESSIANIC AGE.

I'm going to Israel soon and that is exactly the last thing I needed to see here. So with all due respect, no thank you.
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:2) I never said humans would not exist. I said specifically that it was the end of all human ages. Once Y'shua comes back, yes humans are still here, but we enter the MESSIANIC AGE.

.

Thanks for the clarification. When I read ..."But it's not totally that simple. In Hebraic thought, the end of THIS WORLD (olam hazeh) means not just the end of THIS age but the end of ALL AGES OF HUMANITY"...I did not know how to understand it.
Anyway it was just a simple misunderstanding.
ograabe Wrote:Here is what Dave Bauscher's translation has ("The Original Aramaic New Testament in Plain English", Lulu Publishing 2009):

11. But all these things that occurred to them were for our example and it
was written for our admonition, for their end of the world has come
upon us.
(I believe Paul was writing of the destruction of the nation of Israel. He was writing specifically to the Jewish
believers, according to verse 1. Even as the Israelites were destroyed in the wilderness of Sin, so the nation under Rome
would be destroyed because of sin. He was not speaking of the absolute end of the world for all people. )

Thanks Otto. I think this explanation makes sense. I dont see it as racist. The author of hebrews makes a similar analogy. I had wondered about this verse where in English translations it ususlly reads ages plural in contradistinction to every other similar passges in the NT where we see the reading age (singular).
Reading it always as age (in english) makes for a more consistent NT IMHO, particularly to me as one seeing all eschatology as already fulfilled.
Anyway this has all been helpful to me anyway, as I was involved in another discussion around these things. So thanks to everyone who helped. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->
Dear Andrew,

Please.....

I only posted Bauscher's translation and his associated commentary for critical review. I didn't realize that it might be offensive...

Sincerely,

Otto
Shlama all--

Otto, I love you man really, but you surprise me here. You are a great friend to me and I appreciate you more than you know, but brother, I must disagree with you here.

Anti-Semitism is ALWAYS offensive. And trust me, you don't want a debate with me about why I have a problem with folks saying all Jews are being pushed into the sea.

Not only that, but what Judge said isn't Scriptural either. I will show that in a moment but for now just ask yourself, knowing what Bauscher said about me PERSONALLY, why on earth would you think I would be okay with HIM talking about the destruction of MY RACE? That would be like one of the Ottomans talking cavalierly about what happened in Armenia in 1915 and then going, "I don't understand why those Assyrians and Armenians are so upset."

Now, as for the ETERNAL duration of Israel and her people...

Psalms 137:1-6
1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. 2 There on the poplars we hung our harps, 3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" 4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. 6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.

2 Samuel 7:23-26
23 And who is like your people Israel--the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? 24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O Lord, have become their God. 25 "And now, Lord God, keep forever the promise you have made concerning your servant and his house. Do as you promised, 26 so that your name will be great forever. Then men will say, 'The Lord Almighty is God over Israel!' And the house of your servant David will be established before you.

1Ch 22:10 -
He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

1Ch 23:25 -
For David had said, "Since the Lord, the God of Israel, has granted rest to his people and has come to dwell in Jerusalem forever,

1Ch 28:4 -
"Yet the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from my whole family to be king over Israel forever. He chose Judah as leader, and from the house of Judah he chose my family.

And from the NT--

Ro 11:2 -
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

Ro 11:26 -

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

If you guys want to talk about the remnant and such, or how some Jews and Gentiles go astray, that's fine. That's an honest discussion. But to post such a blanket statement from Bauscher is LO TOV (no good). Now what do you say? As Y'shua said, stop judging by mere appearances and make a right judgment.

PS--All quotes are NIV, not from my translation.
Dear Andrew,

Thanks for your explanation. I had thought that Bauscher was only referring to the destruction of Isreal in 70 AD and only in that narrow context. I believe the NT describes how our LORD predicted that destruction and related it to the sinfulness that He observed in the leaders in that generation.

Otto
Shlama Akhi Otto,

No worries man. I wasn't angry. I did however require that clarification. Can you see why? Of course Y'shua predicted the destruction of JERUSALEM, but not ALL OF ISRAEL'S PEOPLE because, Y'shua and Rav Shaul both talked about the eternal preservation of the TRIBES OF ISRAEL, who were predicted to be scattered. I think Bauscher, being the precise mathemetician he is, would not make this mistake. If he meant "destruction of the Temple" or "destruction of Jerusalem" I am 100% sure he would have said so. It's not as if he was known for his restraint from speaking his mind in the past, right?

You know in Hebrew and Aramaic the word for "nation" also means "people". So when I see "nation" I think "people, ehtnicity, tribe".

And for the record, I was and am not in any way suggesting this was deliberate or dark on your part. You simply posted what you thought was a relevant citation to a discussion. Because I hold you in such high esteem, as well as my Torah bound requirements to investigate such things thoroughly regardless, I let it stand because I know your heart and I know you meant no harm. I have absolutely no issues with you man. None.

Thank you for your explanation and I hope you see where I was coming from.
Thanks
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Not only that, but what Judge said isn't Scriptural either. I will show that in a moment..

OK lets have look <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


Quote:Now, as for the ETERNAL duration of Israel and her people...

Unfortunately ETERNAL in the hebrew language does not mean for ever and ever. It might have this meaning on occasion possibly but let have look at it's usage in the hebrew bible.

1 Kings 8:13 I have surely built you an house to dwell in, a settled place for you to abide in for ever [olam].

The temple was destroyed so this cant mean for ever and ever.

Exodus 21:6 then his master shall bring him to God. He shall also bring him to the door, or to the doorpost, and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him always [olam].

Not for ever and ever. We could go on and on and on with examples here.



Quote:Psalms 137:1-6
1 By the rivers of Babylon we sat and wept when we remembered Zion. 2 There on the poplars we hung our harps, 3 for there our captors asked us for songs, our tormentors demanded songs of joy; they said, "Sing us one of the songs of Zion!" 4 How can we sing the songs of the Lord while in a foreign land? 5 If I forget you, O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. 6 May my tongue cling to the roof of my mouth if I do not remember you, if I do not consider Jerusalem my highest joy.

As God has no roof of his mouth I think we can conclude this is the psalmist not God speaking here.

Quote:2 Samuel 7:23-26
23 And who is like your people Israel--the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? 24 You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O Lord, have become their God. 25 "And now, Lord God, keep forever the promise you have made concerning your servant and his house. Do as you promised, 26 so that your name will be great forever. Then men will say, 'The Lord Almighty is God over Israel!' And the house of your servant David will be established before you.

See the meaning of the hebrew "olam" (for ever and ever) given above. It just means a long time.

Quote:1Ch 22:10 -
He is the one who will build a house for my Name. He will be my son, and I will be his father. And I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel forever.'

See Acts chapter 2

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ

Quote:1Ch 23:25 -
For David had said, "Since the Lord, the God of Israel, has granted rest to his people and has come to dwell in Jerusalem forever,

So...did God dwell there forever (as in eternal). Did God dwell in an earthly temple for ever? Come on Andrew.

Quote:1Ch 28:4 -
"Yet the Lord, the God of Israel, chose me from my whole family to be king over Israel forever. He chose Judah as leader, and from the house of Judah he chose my family.

Forever...as in eternal?

And from the NT--

Quote:Ro 11:2 -
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

A remnant was brought in pre 70 AD

Quote:Ro 11:26 -

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." 28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

So...didn't God take away their sins already? Im not sure of your point here.
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