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Shlama Friends,

I was hoping that someone else besides me would write this.

But I've waited several weeks and nada.....nothing on it.

Paul Younan was answering a post one evening (American time) and said (I believe):

That "God did NOT die upon the cross".

Messiah, His Son died, but NOT GOD.

This led me down memory lane, and listening to how many preachers saying just the opposite.

I don't know much about Orthodox Christianity, and I honestly don't know if this is "just" a Nestorian doctrine, or not.

But I DO know this, because my dad was from Britian, I've researched ancient churches in the British Isles pretty throughly.

Most of the really ancient churches that go back beyond Medieval times, have carvings of what's known as "the green man", a leafy foliate face, and "shiela na gighs", a woman holding open her vulva. And other pagan carvings in them as well, including a phallic shaped stone under most of the altars in these olden churches.

I say all of this, because the pre-Christian pagan people believed in "a dying god" of vegetation, a kind of "john barleycorn", if you like.

This "god" died once a year, and was re-born once a year.

I believe that the Roman Catholic Church could not beat these beliefs down in Britian, and so they took over these places that were sacred to the pagans and built churches there.

Most Priests/Vicars KNOW that their olden Churches in Britian are built on ancient pagan sites.

Most of these carvings were done in the 11th, and 12th Centuries, when there was a Norman pagan revival in Britian.

Now, this is a long explanation of why the Protestants adopted the dying god from the Roman Catholics, and the Roman Catholics adopted the dying god from the pagans.

This explains why "Christianity" has a "God" that they claim has "died".

It WASN'T Jesus/Messiah who died according to them, it was God Himself.

Maybe the most important thing that I've learned here, isn't about Aramaic Primacy, but THAT GOD DID NOT DIE.

I know perhaps to most of you, you learned this long ago.

But I had NOT really thought this through till Paul Younan wrote about it a few weeks ago.

I spent literally DAYS thinking about this subject, and these are some of the conclusions that I came to.

A LOT of 'Christianity' is pagan. Perhaps most of it.

And they continue to live like they believe, that God "died".

I find this tragic, sad, and throughly demoralizing.

This might explain why most of modern "Christianity" is such a disaster.

I know that this might seem elementary to most of you.

But it hit me like a train.

And I'm still reeling, from YEARS of hearing this lie.

Truth Against The World, Albion
An Exposition of The Mysteries (Mar Narsai, 437 AD)

He was laid in a manger and wrapped in swaddling clothes, as Man;
and the watchers extolled Him with their praises, as God.
He offered sacrifices according to the Law, as Man;
and He received worship from the Persians, as God.
Simeon bore Him upon his arms, as Man;
and he named Him 'the Mercy' who showth mercy to all, as God.
He kept the Law completely, as Man;
and He gave His own new Law, as God.
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He was baptized in Jordan by John, as Man;
and the heaven was opened in honour of His baptism, as God.
He went in to the marriage-feast of the city of Canna, as Man;
and He changed the water that it became wine, as God.
He fasted in the wilderness forty days, as Man;
and watchers descended to minister unto Him, as God.
He slept in the boat with His disciples, as Man;
and He rebuked the wind and calmed the sea, as God.
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He set out and departed to a desert place, as Man;
and He multiplied the bread and satisfied thousands, as God.
He ate and drank and walked and was weary, as Man;
and He put devils to flight by the word of His mouth, as God.
He prayed and watched and gave thanks and worshipped, as Man;
and He forgave debts and pardoned sins, as God.
He asked water of the Samaritan woman, as Man;
and He revealed and declared her secrets, as God.
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He sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, as Man;
and He forgave the sinful woman her sins, as God.
He went up into the mountain of Tabor with His disciples, as Man;
and He revealed His glory in their sight, as God.
He shed tears and wept over Lazarus, as Man;
and He called him that he came forth by His mighty power, as God.
He rode upon a colt and entered Jerusalem, as Man;
and the boys applauded Him with their Hosannas, as God.
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He drew nigh to the fig-tree and shewed that He was hungered, as Man;
and His mighty power caused it to wither on a sudden, as God.
He washed the feet of His twelve, as Man;
and He called Himself Lord and Master, as God.
He ate the legal passover, as Man;
and He exposed the treachery of Iscariot, as God.
He prayed and sweated at the time of His passion, as Man;
and He scared and terrified them that took Him, as God.
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The attendants seized Him and bound His hands, as Man;
and He healed the ear that Simon cut off, as God.
He stood in the place of judgement and bore insult, as Man;
and He declared that He is about to come in glory, as God.
He bore His Cross upon His shoulder, as Man;
and He revealed and announced the destruction of Zion, as God.
He was hanged upon the wood and endured the passion, as Man;
and He shook the earth and darkened the sun, as God.
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Nails were driven into His body, as Man;
and He opened the graves and quickened the dead, as God.
He cried out upon the Cross 'My God, My God,' as Man;
and promised Paradise to the thief, as God.
His side was pierced with a spear, as Man;
and His nod rent the temple veil, as God.
They embalmed His body and He was buried in the earth, as Man;
and He raised up His temple by His mighty power, as God.
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He remained in the tomb three days, as Man;
and the watchers glorified Him with their praises, as God.
He said that He had received all authority, as Man;
and He promised to be with us for ever, as God.
He commanded Thomas to feel His side, as Man;
and He gave them the Spirit for an earnest, as God.
He ate and drank after His resurrection, as Man;
and He ascended to the height and sent the Spirit, as God.
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Thank you, Albion, for your profound contribution here. There is much, I can tell, that I can learn from you. I too love to see how certain things from our past intersect into a critical understanding of our present, and even what they can say about our future. What you shared reminded me of some things I read earlier today:

12. "There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."
15. "The simple man believes every word; but the prudent discerns between good and evil."
16. "A wise man is cautious, and departs from evil; but the fool tampers with it confidently."
18. "Fools inherit folly; but the prudent dispense knowledge."
(Proverbs 14, Lamsa)

- and -

"The law of the wise is a fountain of life to those who depart from the snares of death."
(Proverb 13:14, Lamsa)

Sit upon these maxims for a moment, and I think they'll hit you like a train as well!


And Paul -

Thank you for sharing what you did here. I came across An Exposition a few years ago and almost got it, but never did. I had intended on probably getting myself a copy, but mostly had in mind giving one to a friend at the time, from my previous Protestant church, who had been my prayer-group leader. He chose to not limit himself when it came to seeking truth from other traditions, and his favorites were Roman Catholic and Greek Orthodox. Back then, as I was myself becoming more aware of the Eastern Church's existence in history, I was looking around at everything, and when I came across the Exposition, noticing that it is an explanation of the Qurbana Qadisha, or Eucharistic Service, I immediately sprung curiosity as to how the East's perspective differed from Rome's and Greece's. I'll have to get it, now that it has come to my attention again.

Now, I have a question for you:

"and the watchers extolled Him with their praises"
"and watchers descended to minister unto Him"
"and the watchers glorified Him with their praises"

Is the Syriac that Mar Narsai is conveying here as "watchers" congruent to the Ethiopic Enochian "Watchers"?

Just curious, as these references sort of leaped out at me!


Blessings,

-Ryan

P.S. Rafa -
What Albion is pointing out is called syncretism. Trying to offer "strange fire" as an acceptable sacrifice to YHWH, if you will. This happens when little ones are born to fools who thus teach them their folly, and the procession of tradition can continue for an untold amount of time. Also, it happens in contemporary generations by those who know better, such as the sons of Korach, but think they can believe their own lies that "well, He doesn't mind, because He's a God of Love" and so-forth. People simply overlaying the templates of philosophy and/or the acceptable worship of gods, over onto the Image and/or worship of, the Perfect and Self-Disclosed YHWH. Simply put, God desires to be worshipped in a certain way, and to not be worshipped in certain ways. Otherwise, let's all go back to Mount Sinai and expect Him to have a different reaction to the Israelites when they fashioned for themselves a golden calf, and pronounced its name "YHWH", right? Albion is seeking the holiness of God; the fact that our God is Set-Apart, and not just anything pleases Him. Otherwise, sacrificing our children to Him as the ancients did to Molekh should be perfectly acceptable. And why not? See, if murder is unacceptable (6th Commandment), then so should be projecting false images of who God really is onto Him (2-3 Commandments) and thinking that it actually pleases Him. It does not. Otherwise Yeshua wouldn't have had such a cow over the "learned commandments of men", the "traditions of the elders", or the practices of those "who call themselves Jews, but really are not, but are of the synagogue of satan". Sheesh, what a literalist for Christ's sake, right?! Oh yeah, He WAS the Christ. Hmmmmm. Albion has this is mind, not the other way around. He's not saying that we can equate YHWH to a corn god because of churchianity's practices; he's saying we should be careful, as Yeshua was and taught us to do, to remove all traces of foreign god worship and false images of YHWH, from our religious worship of Him. Period, I believe. As Jeremiah says, "the Gentiles shall come to thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely the idols of falsehood which our fathers have inherited are nothing, and there is no profit in them" (Lamsa), or more commonly,

"Surely our fathers have inherited lies"
Rafa,

You obviously know nothing of the pagan Norman builders of 11th and 12th Century Britian.

What I said is absolutely 100% TRUE.

Period.

To call me.....what was it you said........" a counter missionary", now, that's laughable!

Why don't you stick to what you know, and have researched, and I'll do the same.

Ancient British churches is not your forte.

Albion



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Akhay Rafa and Albion,

Also of note: there are many old churches in Iraq that are built on top of old pagan temples. There's one outside of Nineveh that, when excavated, revealed a temple dedicated to Tammuz and Ishtar.

In any case, the converts destroyed these houses of blasphemy and built churches over them. A rather symbolic gesture of victory over old paganism.

The concept of a "bleeding" and "dying" deity, one who is subject to the same sufferings as the men who created him, has roots in old Babylon~Mesopotamia.

In case anyone is wondering why this topic is allowed in an otherwise theology-free forum: this has a direct relationship to our field of study because we have two manuscript traditions within the Aramaic milieu. One manuscript tradition has God offering His "blood" as the price with which He bought the Church, and the other has Messiah offering His blood.

Therefore it is imperative that the older, more correct reading be determined for these disputed verses.

+Shamasha
Shlama Akhi Ryan,

Amatsyah Wrote:Now, I have a question for you:

"and the watchers extolled Him with their praises"
"and watchers descended to minister unto Him"
"and the watchers glorified Him with their praises"

Is the Syriac that Mar Narsai is conveying here as "watchers" congruent to the Ethiopic Enochian "Watchers"?

Just curious, as these references sort of leaped out at me!

The word "Eyr" is first attested in Aramaic documents found at Qumran. The word comes from the Aramaic~Hebrew root "Ayn-Waw-Resh" (Hebrew) and "Ayn-Yodh-Resh" (Aramaic), which means "awake~guard~watch".

(The difference between the Hebrew Waw and Aramaic Yodh is a common observance, many instances exist where the substitution of the 2nd radical of Waw with Yodh, or vice-versa, exists between the two languages.)

"M-L-Kh" is the usual title for angels, but that root in both languages conveys more of a "messenger" meaning, whereas the "Eyr~Ewr" root conveys more of a "guardian" meaning. It becomes the dominant word for angel in later CoE patristic writings and plays a prominent role in our liturgy.

+Shamasha
Shlama Akhi Albion,

I don't wish to answer this issue here because of the sensitive theology, but I did want to reassure you that we deal with this issue quite extensively in Mari/PEACE so you will see how we reconcile divine side of Messiah but avoid trinity. Mari is not just a translation. It is a halachic and theological encyclopedia, as you will see. If you would like me to comment further, just email me privately. Todah!

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
Rafa Wrote:This was basically where I was going to Akhi Paul- the Parthenon was turned into a church too for instance, as where hundreds of old pagan temples in Europe (Best way to find where the pagan temples used to be is where many churches currently are- research "Dragon lines"). The sculpture and adornment sometimes even made reference to these things BUT not in the manner being described here (ie: honoring idolatry in any way). No Akhi Albion, I disagree with you. Do you think a pagan built THIS:

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Be honest. Those are crosses on top the spires, this building was dedicated to the three apostles Keefa, Yaakov, and of course Rav Shaul. *Not* Zeus, Tammuz, Molech or anything of the sort. Here are details of the relics painfully collected from the four corners of the world just for this building, considered the Greatest Norman Cathedral in England:

Quote:We have a detailed record in the contents of the Abbey's reliquaries from the mid-12th century monk Hugh Candidus, they included; two pieces of swaddling clothes which wrapped the baby Jesus, pieces of Jesus' manger, a part of the five loaves which fed the 5,000, a piece of the raiment of St Mary, a piece of Aaron's rod, and relics of St Peter, St Paul and St Andrew - to whom the church is dedicated. [8]

If this is pagan then I don't know what is non-pagan. This is a house for the Lord and many generations of people served him in this building. Period.


Shlama all,

Did the tabernacle in the wilderness have crosses? Did Solomon's temple? Did the temple in Jerusalem in Yahshua's time have crosses? These were places to worship Yahweh. These are our examples.
Dear Bob,

You asked:

"Did the tabernacle in the wilderness have crosses? Did Solomon's temple? Did the temple in Jerusalem in Yahshua's time have crosses? These were places to worship Yahweh. These are our examples."

I assume that you are mentioning Paul's Assyrian Church of the East crosses.

I have what I consider to be PROOF that the very early "Celtic Christians" had a cross with a circle around the top part of it.

These were Jewish Messianic Believers led by Joseph (Yosef) of Arimathea (Ramtha) who gave his tomb for Messiah to be buried in.

Yosef was basically running for his life from the Sanhedrin, as were his followers.

I understand that this is NOT a Magen David, or some other "Jewish" symbol.

But it WAS a symbol of the very early "British" followers of Messiah.

The Syriac Church also had symbols that were similar, hence, Paul's COE crosses.

Shlama, Albion
Quote:"Did the tabernacle in the wilderness have crosses? Did Solomon's temple? Did the temple in Jerusalem in Yahshua's time have crosses? These were places to worship Yahweh. These are our examples."

Shlama Akhi Bob:
The cross of our LORD Yeshua Meshikha is the single most potent symbol of his vicarious substitutional sacrifice for the sins of humanity. The sacrifices on the altar both of the Tabernacle and the Temple are/were a shadow of the salvation which was to come. It's impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sin and give eternal life. (Psalm 40:6-9 YHVH you yourself know, Hebrews 9:13, 10:4) The scriptures are full of symbolism. Why is the cross of Messiah any less significant? Yeshua said, "take up your cross and follow me". (Matthew 10:38, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23, I Corinthians 1:17, 18, Galatians 5:11, Galatians 6:12-14, Philippians 3:18, Colossians 1:20, Hebrews 12:2) The cross of our gracious Messiah is a very potent symbol os salvation.

Shlama,
Stephen
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Here's my 2 cents worth on this issue:

Did God die? Yes AND No. Now let me pull out the Hebrew & Aramaic: Did Elohim (plural, i.e. God in His fullness) die? NO. Did Alaha (singular, God's principle manifestation - His arm - i.e. Yeshua the "right hand of God") die? YES! God DID die, He HAD to die because:

1) to redeem all humanity, as none of us can redeem ourselves, nuff said.
2) He divorced Israel. She committed harlotry by prostituting herself to other gods. Because of this He HAD to divorce her, and because He divorced her, she COULD NOT remarry her husband (YHWH) because she has defiled herself by "playing the harlot". But YHWH loves His wife, He wanted her back, He promised to take her back! But how could He take her back? If a woman marries another while her husband is still alive then she commits adultery. BUT the woman is free to remarry if her husband dies. Israel's husband (YHWH) HAD to die in order to fulfill His promises regarding her restoration, and He DID, so now she is free to remarry Him! He's done His bit (died for her) and now He's patiently waiting for her to do her bit - return to Him. It's no wonder "all the tribes of the land" will "mourn" when they look on "the one they pierced".

So God died, how, what does that mean? Isaiah 53 has the answer: "To whom has the arm of YHWH been revealed?" It wasn't Elohim in His fulness that died, but Alaha - the Arm of YHWH - Yeshua, and because He (Yeshua) is "the Arm of YHWH" He is therefore part of YHWH, and therefore YHWH Himself.
If God did not die, He sure went through an awful lot of trouble to deceive us into believing that He did.

Paul, you say God could not be born. This is to say there was no incarnation at all. If there was no incarnation, then what do we have to believe in and why would we want to believe in a deceiver who says He is God and was born in Bethlehem and would die for the sins of the world?

atlm wh awh yhwtya ahlaw ??????And The Word (Miltha) was God??? John 1:1
awh arob atlmw ??????And The Word (Miltha) became flesh. John 1:14

These scriptures say plainly that God became human. They do not say He dwelt with a human, nor in a human. If the scriptures do not mean what they say, then why should we trust them?

Jesus is YHWH. You believe that. I believe that. He is also human. You and I agree on this as well. But He is One Person. We agree on this also. We cannot dissect Him and pull Him apart into two natures and two qnomas and still conceive of Him as He is, One Person Who is fully Divine and fully human, indivisible. To say He is fully Divine means that every part of Him is Divine. To say He is fully human means every part of Him is human. We may not understand how it can be so; frankly I don???t have a problem with it, but it is what scripture reveals and we are to accept His word by faith, even if we don???t understand it.
God is incarnate in His Son Yeshua Meshikha. This means God has a body of flesh, blood and bone. To deny this is to deny Him.

When we start trying to pull Jesus apart, we start to pull ourselves apart and rend the church asunder; it is unavoidable. No amount of argument will ever change that fact. When someone tells me that Jesus The Christ???s birth was not God???s birth, I become violently angry.
When someone says that His death was not God???s death, I want to weep.

atsw ayrmd hmxl Nm lkad lykh anya 27
hrgplw ayrmd hmdl wh byxm hl aws alw hok Nm
Whoever therefore eats from the bread
of THE LORD JEHOVAH and drinks from
his cup and is unworthy of it, is guilty for the
blood of THE LORD JEHOVAH and for
his body.
abywx aws al dk hnm atsw ryg lkad Nm
ayrmd hrgp srp ald atsw lka hspnl wh
29 (Peshitta)
For whoever eats and drinks from it
being unworthy, eats and drinks a guilty
verdict into his soul for not distinguishing the
body of THE LORD JEHOVAH.

The scripture above plainly states that YHWH had a body and blood to sacrifice for us, and that He did so.

hdbed whd aywxm wh atwm aqtyd tyad ryg akya 16 (Peshitta)
16.For where there is a testament, it shows
the death of him who made it; -Hebrews 9:16

Nwnh atmwy rtb Nm Nwhl ltad aqtyd yh adh16
yhwybtka Nwhtwbl lew Nwhyedmb yowmnl yhwylta ayrm rma
(Peshitta)
16."This is the covenant that I shall give
them after those days, says THE LORD
JEHOVAH: I shall put my law into their
minds, and I shall write it upon their hearts, Hebrews 10:16

The One who made the Testament (will) had to die to make it effective. That One is Mar Yah (The Lord Jehovah, according to Jeremiah 31 and the Apostle Paul here in Hebrews.

If God did not die, then we have no New Covenant, no salvation, no hope.

What can you be thinking, and the COE members who believe God did not die on the cross?

I have the utmost respect for you, Paul. You are a great guy and a brilliant scholar and teacher.

I also believe & hope you are too large a soul and mind to fit into the narrow and backward thinking constraints of the COE, but that???s just my opinion.

I know I am going to catch it for saying that, but I am just here to deliver the bomb and get it off my chest.

The above scriptures are all taken from The Peshitta and are the same in Western and Eastern versions, to my knowledge.

And I have no doubt that the Peshitta NT reveals that Jesus is God in flesh and that He Who is God really and truly died on the cross to take away the sins of the world for all time and eternity. The sacrifice had to be more than that of a man, no matter how good he was; it required an Life that was Immense- THE LIFE of the universe, nay, THE LIFE of God Himself and of every angel, of every saint, of all the living- The Life of Lives, The LIFE of Life. That is what died on the cross.

Not a piece of flesh and bone- God The LORD!

Amen & Amen!!

Thank you, Christine, for confessing Him as He is.

What the hell is the matter with the rest of you?!

Dave
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh feel THE LOVE !
Akhay,

Rafa, I agree with your summary.

Dave, I really feel that when you say God "died", you do not believe so literally. You can't really mean that. Not even the Jacobites believe that.

Yes, He took flesh from the Virgin and made it His own. However His flesh, taken from our Humanity, died and was buried. You and I both know that it is not possible to be immortal, yet mortal, at the same time. If God died for 1 second, let alone 3 days, then that is not God but a fake. I cannot imagine a universe which continues to function for one millisecond if its Creator ceased to exist for any length of time.

Surely, you didn't mean that. You really don't believe that God is a mortal, do you?

Likewise, it is not the manhood with which He clothed Himself that forgave sins. It is not possible for man to forgive debts owed to God alone.

The point of the hymn listed further up on this thread, what Mar Narsai wanted to convey was the mystery of this dualness of the personhood of the Messiah. That Messiah is God/Man ..... not God-Man. There's a huge difference between the slash and the dash. The concept of god-men is pagan, the reality of God/Man is scriptural and Orthodox.

You may consider the view of the CoE "narrow", however you and I both know that it is scriptural. You are as dyophysite as I am, we really have no difference of opinion here.

However, if I am wrong and you really do believe in a dying and bleeding God, a God who can be tempted by Satan in the wilderness (a true temptation, not a fake one that Satan had no hope of succeeding)....then, oh well perhaps you are more monophysite in leaning.

Take care!
Shamasha Paul
Shlama Akhi David,

Shamasha Paul is perfectly correct. YHWH could not, cannot, and never could die. Not for an instant. If He did, He is not as He promised in His name, Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh, I am that I am, I will be whom I will be, and so on. Nearly every great sage and prophet and seer in Scripture has sanctified their writings with "as surely as YHWH lives"--therefore if there is one point where YHWH does NOT live, the promises die with Him. Every breath of all life is dependent on YHWH's endorsement moment to moment.

But that is not to say Y'shua is just another man--he is the ONLY HUMAN to have the spirit of YHWH dwell fully and completely in him from conception and the only one whom prophecy (Ex 23:20-22, Zech 12:10) said would be the pierced vessel that contained the Qnoma of YHWH. YHWH gave him special life, power, judgment, etc, that no one before or ever again will have, so that when it was combined with perfect obedience to Father YHWH, His sacrifice would be acceptable as an offering.

But with all due respect and peace to you what you have said to my mind David is a muddling of Scripture. On the one hand you proclaim that YHWH turned His back and forsook His Son, on the other that YHWH died. How can both be true at the same time? YHWH turned His back and then died??? You know and understand Qnoma Theory David so you should also recognize that Y'shua said his NEFESH would die, NOT the Ruach of YHWH. Y'shua said he would lay down HIS LIFE in Yochanan 10, NOT the life of His Father's. That's Aramaic grammar 101.

Also I don't think your language was appropriate. If you disagree with us fine, but there is no need to invoke Satan's domain to express your frustration. I know you are better than that, and like Paul, I find it very hard to believe that you think YHWH is mortal. Be well and may YHWH continue to bless you, your house, and your scholarship.

Shlama w'burkate
Andrew Gabriel Roth
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