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Precisely. It is for this reason that they were banished. And they can never be again acceptable unless they are once again Shomer HaTorah.
Good. I am not giving you an opinion. I am telling you only what was reported by Mosheh and the Nevi'im. Saying that they were never "Jewish" is purely semantics. In post exilic writings all of the chosen people are always referred to as "Jews" or "Judeans."
And I answered that he very well may have meant them.
No, you did not. You asked if I already knew.
If you like I can quote the Samaritan sources that may disagree to an extent with you.

Except that if this means the COE, then they have once again become apostate from the Torah, and are in need of a renewal of their teshuva and tsedaqa. There is but one Law for all Israel, as well as the proselyte.
You know Dawid, what you SHOULD have done when you joined this Board was to study the very early Assyrian Church of the East.

Members of Messiah's own family were "leaders" of this ancient Church, early on.

For between 190 to 200 years the COE had blood born Jews (the Remnant of the original Nazarenes, in my opinion) as Catholicos, or Patriarchs, of said Church.

NOW, if the Nazarenes "migrated" into the Assyrian COE, and even Messiah's OWN FAMILY MEMBERS were a part of the very early COE, do you REALLY think that they would be "apostates" (why not just use the Muslim term "infidels"?) from what Messiah Yeshua actually TAUGHT?

Your way too caught up in your own drama here Dawid. Not seeing the forest, because of the trees.

I've been looking since 1988 into the Assyrian COE, one must keep an open mind, for historical research that's as technical and tedious as this kind of research can be.

You don't have to abandon your beliefs, but you MUST keep an open mind.

Have you read Ray Pritz's book about 'Nazarene Jewish Christianity'?

if you have, what about his opinions and his research?

Albion
Again, you are dealing with a completely different issue. I'm not asking you if you think that being observant is a condition of being part of "Judaism."

I asked you whether or not Meshikha could have meant that He came for the "lost sheep of the House of Israel", and whether He meant those very same people who were banished centuries earlier. And whether those were the same people Josephus and Agrippa were referring to.

I did not ask you whether Meshikha said "I came for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, as long as they become observant again."

I asked you whether the "House of Israel", which obviously wasn't observant of anything except idol worship and debauchery, could have been the subjects of that mission.

Whether or not that mission has failed in your eyes because for whatever reason something is observed or not, again, is not the question.

You seem to have a very hard time staying on topic.

Again, for your clarity: I'm not asking whether or not you feel that Meshikha's mission to the "lost sheep" was successful or not, by whatever measure you use for success.

I'm asking you, could He have meant those taken captive and during His lifetime were in Arbela?

Yes or no, simple question. I'm not asking you whether or not the CoE is your ideal result of that mission. I'm not asking you whether or not we need some more "re-education".

I'm not asking you what the Samaritans would say. It's obvious from scripture who the Samaritans are. All 200 of them that are left.

Simple question, it should be a simple answer.

Thanks!

+Shamasha Paul
Albion Wrote:You know Dawid, what you SHOULD have done when you joined this Board was to study the very early Assyrian Church of the East.

Members of Messiah's own family were "leaders" of this ancient Church, early on.

For between 190 to 200 years the COE had blood born Jews (the Remnant of the original Nazarenes, in my opinion) as Catholicos, or Patriarchs, of said Church.

NOW, if the Nazarenes "migrated" into the Assyrian COE, and even Messiah's OWN FAMILY MEMBERS were a part of the very early COE, do you REALLY think that they would be "apostates" (why not just use the Muslim term "infidels"?) from what Messiah Yeshua actually TAUGHT?

Your way too caught up in your own drama here Dawid. Not seeing the forest, because of the trees.

I've been looking since 1988 into the Assyrian COE, one must keep an open mind, for historical research that's as technical and tedious as this kind of research can be.

You don't have to abandon your beliefs, but you MUST keep an open mind.

Have you read Ray Pritz's book about 'Nazarene Jewish Christianity'?

if you have, what about his opinions and his research?

Albion
Albion, I agree. At the time it would have been a good idea. And I did start reading a history of the COE back then. Now I am focused on other things. I would love to study it, but I feel there are more pressing issues at the moment.
I did not say that they were at the time. I merely commented on the current status of the COE.
I love technical and tedious historical research.
Yes, I own Pritz's book. I think it was very good research. I disagree with a few of his opinions, but most of it was right on.
Mr. Younan, I have answered your question two or three times now. Yes, I think it is possible. This is not the first time I have said that. I don't understand why you keep asking me when I have plainly answered you already.
I merely wanted to clarify in case you were going where I think you are with this line of reasoning.
I also do not think that Samaritan history is as clear as it would seem, since there were, at least, two groups referred to as Shomrim. I also think it is important to look at their pre-exilic existence, attested to in the TN"K, Karaite commentaries, and their own writings.
I agree with akhan Paul, concerning "the lost sheep of the house of Israel", if anyone can claim descent from these ancient Hebrews, the Assyrians are IMO the most likely candidates. I want to do more research on this, any websites out there which talks about these things. And akhi Paul, I'm interested in those references of Josephus and others which you have, by all means post them.

Shlama,
Christina.
Christina Wrote:And akhi Paul, I'm interested in those references of Josephus and others which you have, by all means post them.

Hi Khati Christina,

Quote:Antiquities of the Jews - Book XI (Ch. 5)

When Esdras had received this epistle, he was very joyful, and began to worship God, and confessed that he had been the cause of the king's great favor to him, and that for the same reason he gave all the thanks to God. So he read the epistle at Babylon to those Jews that were there; but he kept the epistle itself, and sent a copy of it to all those of his own nation that were in Media. And when these Jews had understood what piety the king had towards God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them, and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans, while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers. Now there came a great number of priests, and Levites, and porters, and sacred singers, and sacred servants to Esdras. So he gathered those that were in the captivity together beyond Euphrates, and staid there three days, and ordained a fast for them, that they might make their prayers to God for their preservation, that they might suffer no misfortunes by the way, either from their enemies, or from any other ill accident; for Esdras had said beforehand that he had told the king how God would preserve them, and so he had not thought fit to request that he would send horsemen to conduct them.

You can see from the above quote that, even after 8 centuries, they were still in the land where the King of Assyria had exiled them (modern-day northern Iraq and northwest Iran) (cf., 2 Kings 17 - "So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day.")

[Image: captivity.jpg]

Notice Christina, that the deportation of the Trans-Jordan tribes by Shalmanesar V (the red arrow) took those those tribes (Reuben and Gad and the half-tribe of Manasseh) right into the area around Nineveh (see the book of Nahum, who was one of the captives.)

For scientific evidence, notice how modern-day "Assyrian" DNA is most closely related to Jordanian DNA: (see <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm">http://www.assyrianfoundation.org/genetics.htm</a><!-- m -->)

Why would the DNA of modern-day "Assyrians" be closer to Jordanian DNA, than to the DNA of those nations surrounding them in Iraq, Iran and Turkey .... where they live? Perhaps they are not "Assyrian" after all, but the descendants after 2,800 years of those 2 1/2 tribes from the trans-jordan?

[Image: graph-gen.gif]

This information, along with the quote of Josephus recording the speech of King Agrippa of the Jews, placing the captives in "Adiabene" (ancient Assyria), is astounding because truly Meshikha did gather the lost sheep of the "house" of Israel ... and they went on to create what John Stewart called the "Greatest Missionary Church the world has ever known", taking the Gospel to the farthest reaches of Asia.

For more information, read Asahel Grant's magnificent book here:

http://www.peshitta.org/pdf/grant.pdf

+Shamasha Paul
Very interesting akhi Paul, thanx <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->
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