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Quote:Abraham cannot be a "Muslim" because Abraham was a Hebrew/Aramean. Abraham would never say "Allah hu akhbar" which means

No one ever claimed that Abraham uttered the words "Allahu Akbar." After all, his prinicipal languages were Akkadian and Aramaic. Etymologically speaking, the word "Muslim" is derived from the root SLM, which means "peace" in Aramaic, Hebrew, and classical Arabic. Moreover, Abraham was a Muslim in the sense that he submitted his will unto God.

Quote:"Allah is a mouse" in Hebrew and Aramaic. "Akhbar" in Hebrew means "Mouse" and in Aramaic it is "Aqubra", same root word with Hebrew.

"Ya' also means God in both Aramaic and Hebrew. This word, however, is not present in Arabic. But your blasphemy in common in modern day Israel as a taunt directed towards Muslims.

Quote:Quran also says that Allah is a ZIONIST who gives the land to Israel until the next life to come.

Where?

Quote:It doesn't say "Arabs" or "Palestinians" here > QURAN 17:104 And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

104. And We said thereafter to the Children of Israel, "Dwell securely in the land (of promise)": but when the second of the warnings came to pass, We gathered you together in a mingled crowd

Why did you change the words from their places?
bar_khela Wrote:Forum,

I'm at the point of my life where every nuclei in my body is racing forth to tell me that it's time to become.

Therefore, I resign as a member of the forum. Farewell.
---------------

Shalom to all on the forum,

Appologies if I am intruding on this post but let me introduce myself.

I am from an Islamic background and now a believer in Yeshua the Nazarene.

Akhi bar_khela made some comments regards with Islam e.g.

My point is that Muslims, who actually adhere by the Qu'ran and the lifestyle of the Prophet, do not go around killing Jews and Christians. I cannot make my point clearer.
----------

First of all this is not true neither by definition or by the words of the Qur'an or hadith. Just take a look at all the terrorism in the world, who is doing it?

Verses of the sword are very clear on what the non-Muslims that includes the Jews and Christians can expect from Muslims who live by the Qur'an.

Sura 9.29 Fight those who do not believe in Allah [Allah is not the God of the Bible], nor in the latter day [atheists, polytheists, humanists and animists], nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited [this includes all people who do not comply with food restrictions and general laws of Islam], nor follow the religion of truth [that means ???Islam??? and applies to all non-Muslim people], out of those who have been given the Book [Includes Jews and Christians especially], until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority [submission tax called Jizzya for those who do not believe in Muhammad and Allah] and they are in a state of subjection [humiliate them in subjection i.e. until they feel the only path for them is to become Muslims to avoid this over taxation and humiliation daily].

You also made a comment "show me the early caliphs who were persecuting the Jews or Christians."

Read very carefully the above Qur'anic statement, that refutes your argument as it comes out of the Muslim holy text and is effective for all time not just Muhammad's time. Now I would like to see your response.

Secondly backed by the Hadith and used by Osama Bin Laden to tell the Muslims...

"The Last Hour would not come till the Muslims fight against the Jews, and the Muslims will kill them until the Jews hide themselves behind the stones and trees, and the stones and trees would speak up saying: "O Muslim! O slave of Allah! There is a Jew hiding behind me; come and kill him." The _Ghardaq_ tree would speak, for it is the tree of the Jews." (Muhammad the prophet of Islam, narrated by Abu Hurraira).

Where is the peace in the above statements?

Thirdly you made some more comments:

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Surah 112

Do you agree? Moses would.

My response:
You would have to prove Allah is God first and Moses would not submit to a monad. Would you please care to provide proof that Allah exists? How may I know this deity that claims to be like Yahweh?

Fourthly you said:
If being born of a virgin qualifies Eeshoa to be the 'son of God,' then surely Adam has more right than he.

My response:
Adam was not born from a virgin, Adam cannot be the Son of God since he is a created being and Yeshua is eternal and uncreated.

Fifth point, you said:
His way is known as "Islam," which was reinforced to the sons of Kedar by the Prophet.

My reply:
Sons of Keder are in judgment at the end of days for their behaviour towards biological Israel.

Jer 49:32 And their camels shall be a booty, and the multitude of their cattle a spoil: and I will scatter into all winds them that are in the utmost corners; and I will bring their calamity from all sides thereof, saith Yahweh.

Sixth point, you said:
To say that Paradise is restricted to Jews and Christians is egoism. To say that no true Prophet can arise outside of 'the sacred borders' of Israel is egosim. Your nation was only charged to bear light for all nations, which was the original Torah (no longer in your possession), not to claim a divine right to His Kingdom.

my reply:
This is the way Yahweh set it and Yeshua was the one who died on the cross to bear the sins of many, it may sound egotistical to you or whatever but Yahweh requires a sacrfice for your sins and in Islam you have no salvation since their is only good deeds which are nothing but menstural rags before a holy our holy father Yahweh.

7th point
The covenant that was made with Abraham is an eternal covenant not temporal so the Hebrews have full rights to their land.

God said to Abraham, "I will give you and your descendents after you the land in which you are now foreigners, all the land of Canaan, as a permanent possession." (Genesis 17:8)

???Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, to you have I
given it, as I spoke unto Moses. From the wilderness, and this Lebanon,
even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the
Hittites, and unto the Great Sea [Mediterraneansea] toward the going down of the sun, shall be your border.??? (Joshua1:3,4; Re: Deuteronomy 11:24)

???This is the inheritance of the tribe of the children of Judah
according to their families.??? ???Ashdod, its towns and its villages; Gaza, its
towns and its villages; unto the Brook of Egypt, the Great Sea being the
border thereof.??? (Joshua15:20,47)

8th Point:

For the Lord has chosen Zion; He has desired it for His dwelling. (Psalm 132:13)

God of Israel Yahweh is a Zionist Himself, so if you hate Zionists then you hate Him also and live under a curse from which you cannot free yourself unless you come to Yeshua the Nazarene.

Please answer these questions so I may be able to help you.

Blessings in the one name under heaven Yeshua of Nazareth

Simon
Shimoun,

Please tell us more about yourself. Are you an Arab, or non-Arab?
Yusuf Ali was trying hard to hide the truth that Allah is a Zionist. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


PICKTHAL: And We said unto the Children of Israel after him: Dwell in the land; but when the promise of the Hereafter cometh to pass We shall bring you as a crowd gathered out of various nations.
SHAKIR: And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/017.qmt.html">http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/017.qmt.html</a><!-- m -->

Does Allah tell Arab or Palestinian Muslims to dwell in the land? NO! Quran says Allah told it to Israel to dwell in the land.



Can any Arab or Palestinian Muslim call to mind Allah favors over them and make them excel above all nations?
> QURAN 2:122 O children of Israel, call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations


Can you ask any Arab / Palestinian Muslim the clear sign that Allah given them? No! Allah is angry with Muslims who changed Allah's favorite nation Israel to Arab. Muslims are siding with wrong side in "Palestinian issues" because Allah is a Zionist. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
> QURAN 2:211 Ask the Israelites how many a clear sign have We given them; and whoever changes the favor of Allah (i.e. ISRAEL) after it has come to him, then surely Allah is severe in requiting (evil).


Quran says Allah curses the violaters of Sabbath. Can you see any Arab Muslims observe Sabbath?
> QURAN 4:47 O you who have been given the Book! believe that which We have revealed, verifying what you have, before We alter faces then turn them on their backs, or curse them as We cursed the violaters of the Sabbath, and the command of Allah shall be executed.
Jews observe Sabbath on Saturday while Christians observe it on Sunday. No wonder Allah curses Muslims. <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


Quran says the holy land belongs to Israel not to any Palestinian Muslims or Arab Muslims because Allah is a Zionist
> QURAN 7:137 And We made the people who were deemed weak to inherit the eastern lands and the western ones which We had blessed; and the good word of your Lord was fulfilled in the children of Israel because they bore up (sufferings) patiently; and We utterly destroyed what Firon and his people had wrought and what they built.

<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->


Quran says Zionist Allah made Israel to pass through the sea in order to inherit the land. Does it say Arab Muslim or Palestinian Muslim here? >QURAN 10:90 And We made the children of Israel to pass through the sea, then Firon and his hosts followed them for oppression and tyranny; until when drowning overtook him, he said: I believe that there is no god but He in Whom the children of Israel believe and I am of those who submit.

Please remember that Yasser Arafat was an Egyptian just like Firaon (Pharaoh... most probably was a descendant of Pharaoh himself). No wonder Allah destroyed Muslims in their three wars with Israel - Allah's favorite nation. <!-- s:bigups: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/bigups.gif" alt=":bigups:" title="Big Ups" /><!-- s:bigups: -->

Quran says that Allah gives the land to Israel and provide them with good things. Does it say Arab Muslims or Palestinian Muslims here?
> QURAN 10:93 And certainly We lodged the children of Israel in a goodly abode and We provided them with good things;

Quran says Allah bestowed favors to Abraham and his grandson Israel. It doesn't say Arab or Palestinian Muslims here
> QURAN 19:58 These are they on whom Allah bestowed favors, from among the prophets of the seed of Adam, and of those whom We carried with Nuh, and of the seed of Ibrahim and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose; when the communications of the Beneficent God were recited to them, they fell down making obeisance and weeping.

The verse above shows to us that the prophets come from Israel. No wonder so many Hebrew prophets in the Quran. <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


Quran says Allah guided and chose Israel. It doesn't say Arab or Palestinian Muslims here
>QURAN 19:58 These are they on whom Allah bestowed favors, from among the prophets of the seed of Adam, and of those whom We carried with Nuh, and of the seed of Ibrahim and Israel, and of those whom We guided and chose; when the communications of the Beneficent God were recited to them, they fell down making obeisance and weeping.


Quran says peace is with those who follow the guidance from Israel. So why must we follow racist Arab Muslims who wanted to torment Israel?
>QURAN 20:47 So go you both to him and say: Surely we are two apostles of your Lord; therefore send the children of Israel with us and do not torment them! Indeed we have brought to you a communication from your Lord, and peace is on him who follows the guidance;

Muslims have no peace today because they have disobeyed Allah. They let racist Arabs led by Abu Sufyan, Muawiya(waged war against Caliph Ali) , Yazid(beheaded the grandson of Muhammad), and Marwan to lead them astray from Allah by hating Israel which is Allah's favorite nation. Please take note that Caliph Marwan the descendant of arch enemy of Muhammad (Abu Sufyan) burned the Quran of Uthman and replaced with his modified version of Quran because they are jealois of Israel. However, we still can find traces of the original Quran. <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin -->

If only Arab Muslims listened to the Quran, the Middle East today would be peaceful because the holy land belongs to Israel.


Quran says Allah delivered Israel from its enemies. No wonder the Arab Muslims lost three wars to Israel
>QURAN 20:80 O children of Israel! indeed We delivered you from your enemy, and We made a covenant with you on the blessed side of the mountain, and We sent to you the manna and the quails.
>QURAN 44:30 And certainly We delivered the children of Israel from the abasing chastisement,

<!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->


Quran says Allah gives a heritage to Israel It doesn't say anything about Arabs or Palestinian Muslims here. Muslims are siding with wrong people because Allah favors Israel not racist Arab Muslims!
> QURAN [26.59] Even so. And We gave them as a heritage to the children of Israel.


Heritage means
1. Property that is or can be inherited; an inheritance.
2.Something that is passed down from preceding generations; a tradition.
3. The status acquired by a person through birth; a birthright: a heritage of affluence and social position.





Muslims doubt Allah and Quran. Quran says Allah gives a book to Israel to guide them.
>QURAN 32:23 And certainly We gave the Book to Musa, so be not in doubt concerning the receiving of it, and We made it a guide for the children of Israel.


I challenge Arab Muslim or Arab wannabe Muslim to show me what Quran says about Arabs and Palestinian Muslims in the Quran... <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: --> By siding with Arab Muslims in the Middle East conflict instead of siding with Zionist Allah in the Quran, Muslims are carrying this emoticon <!-- sConfusedtupid: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/withstupid.gif" alt="Confusedtupid:" title="Stupid" /><!-- sConfusedtupid: -->

This is what Quran says about Arab Muslims ....
> QURAN 9:97 The Arabs are the worst unbelievers and hypocrites, and are most disposed not to know the limits of what God has revealed to His Prophet. And God is all-knowing, Wise.

This is what Quran says about Arab Muslims
> QURAN 9:101 Among those around you of the Arabs are hypocrites-as also among the inhabitants of Medina; they are insolent in their hypocrisy. You don't know them-We do. We will torment them twice, then turn them over to a great punishment. Quran Sura 9:101

Any other verse concerning Arabs in the Quran? <!-- s:lookround: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/lookround.gif" alt=":lookround:" title="Look Round" /><!-- s:lookround: -->

There is no doubt that according to the Quran, the worst unbelievers and hypocrites are the Arab Muslims. Just look at how the Arab world response to Tsunami victims. They were reluctant to help unlike the kafir world led by America...

shimoun63 has a valid point concerning greedy power hungry Caliphs. In fact, the Caliphs hated one another. If the best among Muslims were killing each other instead of loving one another like the Apostles of Christ, we should not be amazed that they persecuted non-Muslims.

Just look at the BATTLE OF CAMEL. The mother of all believers Bibi Aishah waged war against Caliph Ali the commander of all believers because she wanted her relative to be Caliph. More than 20,000 Muslims died killing each other in this battle.

<!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile --> <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> <!-- s:biggrin: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/biggrin.gif" alt=":biggrin:" title="Big Grin" /><!-- s:biggrin: -->
[quote="bar_khela"][quote]
No one ever claimed that Abraham uttered the words "Allahu Akbar." After all, his prinicipal languages were Akkadian and Aramaic. Etymologically speaking, the word "Muslim" is derived from the root SLM, which means "peace" in Aramaic, Hebrew, and classical Arabic. Moreover, Abraham was a Muslim in the sense that he submitted his will unto God. quote]

Muslim is derived from Salaam/ Shalom? I heard it literally came from some Arabic word for submission.
In Aramaic, we say "hua ma'shlem" when we want to convey the thought that somone is going to "submit" to something, against their will.
Paul Younan Wrote:In Aramaic, we say "hua ma'shlem" when we want to convey the thought that somone is going to "submit" to something, against their will.

I proclaim total war on Shimoun and Uma on this forum, Paul. Therefore, I suggest you run to the store for some popcorn and Raisinets.

This debate will resume next week. However, I request each combatant stays open minded and sober so that the conversation is fruitful. Any combatant who breaks a set of rules (that I ask you to set over the weekend) should be disqualified.

Furthermore, I ask that I battle one person at a time.

I welcome you to shoot as me as well, Paul. Get all of those deep dark feelings regarding Islam out onto the table.

This debate is inevitable
hhhmmm well just as long the battle is with words and not anything "steel jacketed".


At some point, I actually probably would like to ask Bar Khela, about things like the rules of Sharia, and such. Since I'm a Coptic convert, and the murder of the New Jersey Coptic family last month, I find quite disturbing.


But things on this thread really have become pretty vitolic, without even raising a more immediate sensitive issue like this.
bar_khela Wrote:
Quote:Read the full account here http://aina.org/martyr.htm

Timeline

622

Twenty Nestorian bishops attempt assasination of Caliph Omar


Thanks for explaining the reason why Caliph Omar invaded the lands of the Assyrians. <!-- sConfusedatisfied: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/satisfied.gif" alt="Confusedatisfied:" title="Satisfied" /><!-- sConfusedatisfied: -->


bar_khela Wrote:Therefore, I resign as a member of the forum. Farewell.

Good bye! You have made a wise decision. This forum is about Peshitta. It is not about propagating Islamic agenda. Like what I told you before, if you wanted to propagate the beliefs that Islam is a tolerant religion you should do it in Islamic forums because Muslims live by their understanding of their "holy" books (i.e. Al Quran and Al Hadith) not by non-Islamic resources or cut and paste from web sites. You will do Christians and Jews a very big favour if you managed to persuade fellow Muslims to remove the offensive texts from the Hadith. In this regard, I totally support you.



bar_khela Wrote:I proclaim total war on Shimoun and Uma on this forum, Paul...


Is that some form of jihad? I hope no one get killed.


bar_khela Wrote:This debate is inevitable


This debate is evitable if you do not hijack this thread to promote your Islamic agenda. This debate is not appropriate here. I suggest you guys hold your debate at the following web sites (and at the same time you could also reach out to wider audience sharing same interest with you guys):

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m -->

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/">http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/</a><!-- m -->

Cut and paste from web sites should not be called debate. Hiding behind "cut and paste" from web sites to say that Zionists like Andrew Gabriel Roth are evil is not noble. When confronted by AGR, you said you have been misunderstood when the fact is telling us that you agree with your "cut and paste." Because if you disagree with that kind of statement then why "cut and paste" in the first place.

Don't bother to reply as I hope you will fulfill your noble and sober decision to leave. Don't let others change your mind.


oozeaddai Wrote:hhhmmm well just as long the battle is with words and not anything "steel jacketed".

I hope this "battle" will not take place in this forum. If there is a need it is more appropriate to hold the battle here:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/">http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/</a><!-- m -->

bar_khela Wrote:I welcome you to shoot as me as well, Paul.

"steel jacketed" is knife right? I hope Paul will not use a gun to shoot in this "total war" or "battle" or ""combat" <!-- s:nervous: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/nervous.gif" alt=":nervous:" title="Nervous" /><!-- s:nervous: -->


oozeaddai Wrote:At some point, I actually probably would like to ask Bar Khela, about things like the rules of Sharia, and such. Since I'm a Coptic convert, and the murder of the New Jersey Coptic family last month, I find quite disturbing.

As far as I know. Islamic Sharia requires death for apostate like shimoun63 (if I understood his post correctly that he is an apostate of Islam). Should shimoun63 and bar_khela feel the need to debate, the following forum would be more appropriate: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/">http://www.apostatesofislam.com/forum/</a><!-- m -->

I strongly advice that shimoun63 should refrain from meeting bar_khela in person. You will never know what would happen.


oozeaddai Wrote:But things on this thread really have become pretty vitolic, without even raising a more immediate sensitive issue like this.
This thread is originally about the language of Jesus. It has been hijacked. I never join any Islamic forum because I am not interested in Islam but I am sure any posting criticizing Islam will be deleted in Islamic web sites.

After 9/11 Christian/Jews and Muslims relationships are getting worse. There is no need to make it worse by turning this forum into Islamic debate. Arguing in this forum could destroy your friendship with Paul Younan and AGR (i.e. if you guys have met in real life and are friends). You guys might deny the possibility of this happening but you will never know what will happen. Therefore, it is better not to make the matter worse.


bar_khela Wrote:Therefore, I resign as a member of the forum. Farewell.

If you feel the need to resign because you realized that you have joined the wrong forum as your interest is in Islamic debates then you should join appropriate forums where many members share your interests.

Don't bother to reply to my post. Honor your own words. I hope you will pass your exam. Farewell.
Paul Younan Wrote:Shimoun,

Please tell us more about yourself. Are you an Arab, or non-Arab?

Shalom Paul,

I am from Pakistan, who better to debate a Muslim then an ex-Muslim who knows the history, etymology of the Qur'an and Islam. <!-- sSmile --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/smile.gif" alt="Smile" title="Smile" /><!-- sSmile -->

Bar_Khela,

I suggest you create another topic and your debate with me is set, answer my previous e-mail so we may continue to exchange our ideas to reach the truth because your god is not the true God Yahweh and I suggest you use your intelligence rather then cutting and pasting websites because your worship to a false god is wrong and idolatrous and you have no eternity so think carefully, this is not about who wins the debate, this is about who has eternity with Hashem of Israel and who doesn't.

Blessings in Yeshua the Nazarene

Simon
bar_khela Wrote:Shlama Akhi Andrew,

Before I begin, I want to say that I am more than happy to see how eager you are to actually debate with me. However, let's stay sober-minded. Most of all, let's stay open minded towards one another. This is not a war, as I was once convinced. This is a debate between you and I. Can we keep it that way?

AGR:

You made this a war Bar Khela, not I. You opened with a cannon salvo against my ancestors, and this is what Torah says about that:

Genesis 12:1-3
1 The Lord said to Abram:
Go out from your land,
your relatives,
and your father's house
to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation,
I will bless you,
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you,
I will curse those who treat you with contempt,
and all the peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.

Such is confirmed also in the NT:

Luke 16:16-17
"The Torah and the Prophets were until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is strongly urged to enter it. But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter in the law to drop out.


Romans 11
1 I ask, then, has God rejected His people? Absolutely not! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the Elijah section--how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 Lord, they have killed Your prophets, torn down Your altars; and I am the only one left, and they are trying to take my life! 4 But what was God's reply to him? I have left 7,000 men for Myself who have not bowed down to Baal. 5 In the same way, then, there is also at the present time a remnant chosen by grace. 6 Now if by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise grace ceases to be grace. 7 What then? Israel did not find what it was looking for, but the elect did find it. The rest were hardened, 8 as it is written: God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that cannot see and ears that cannot hear, to this day . 9 And David says: Let their feasting become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a retribution to them. 10 Let their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent continually. 11 I ask, then, have they stumbled so as to fall? Absolutely not! On the contrary, by their stumbling, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their stumbling brings riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full number bring! 13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. In view of the fact that I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if I can somehow make my own people jealous and save some of them. 15 For if their being rejected is world reconciliation, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 Now if the firstfruits offered up are holy, so is the whole batch. And if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, though a wild olive branch, were grafted in among them, and have come to share in the rich root of the cultivated olive tree, 18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag--you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you. 19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either. 22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you--if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, because God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from your native wild olive, and against nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these--the natural branches--be grafted into their own olive tree? 25 So that you will not be conceited, brothers, I do not want you to be unaware of this secret: a partial hardening has come to Israel until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written: The Liberator will come from Zion; He will turn away godlessness from Jacob. 27 And this will be My covenant with them, when I take away their sins. 28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies for your advantage, but regarding election, they are loved because of their forefathers, 29 since God's gracious gifts and calling are irrevocable. 30 As you once disobeyed God, but now have received mercy through their disobedience, 31 so they too have now disobeyed, resulting in mercy to you, so that they also now may receive mercy. 32 For God has imprisoned all in disobedience, so that He may have mercy on all.
Quote:First of all, the word goes forth from Zion, but I never said it stayed there. There is is one Torah for Jew and for foreigner, so I never said the Torah or the BIble was just for Jews and Christians.And if these are your loving Koranic principles in calling all Zionists evil, then you have either shamed the true Koran or proved it false.

I did not say all Zionists are evil. I simply pasted an excerpt of an interview with a Rabbi who is against Zionists. My purpose for quoting him was to emphasize the peaceful coexistence of Jews and Arabs for over 1,100 years.

Again, I do not care about Zionists, the modern state of Israel, or its political situation.

AGR:

Bar Khela, the first rule of debating is to tell the truth. You know from the beginning I did not dispute the contention that there were times of relative tolerance between Jews and Muslims. I have said this REPEATEDLY. You put that quote out there and hid behind it. Then, when I called on YOU AND YOU ALONE to repudiate the idea that ZIonists are by definition evil and gave you MY DEFINTION of Zionism of Jews being allowed to exist peacefully in Israel and that alone, you had an opportunity to say something like : "Andrew, I'm not against your people's right to exist in Israel and live in peace with their neighbors. I'm against Zionist X who did this or that."

I even went so far as to say that you could label some ACTIONS by those under the Zionist banner (every group has its crazies) as extreme but that Israel had the same right as any other nation to exist. I asked this of YOU sir, not this or that Rabbi, YOU AND YOU ALONE. And what did you do?

You simply hid behind the quote like a coward. As if you do not have the discernment to say "I agree with this part" but distance yourself from the fact that I, as someone you called friend, have said "I am a Zionist" and that you did not want to call me wicked.

In my traditions, not refuting a slander or libel is just as bad as uttering it in the first place. It's called an evil report, lashon hara.

Quote: and contrary to your traditon they never set foot in Arabia either.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html">http://www.islamic-awareness.org/History/kaaba.html</a><!-- m -->

Quote:As for documenting Islamic cruelty to Jews and Christians, why not read about Tamerlane, and if that is not enough, I'm sure we can give you more.


We've talked about the Mongal plenty of times over. But he emerged CENTURIES AFTER THE PROPHET FROM A LAND WITH A NOTABLY DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATIVE POLICY. Like I ask, give me at least three examples of caliphs who were notably cruel to Christians and Jews (nearest to the period of the Prophet). If you cannot, then apologize. After all, the burden of proof is on you.

AGR:

No Akhi, the burden is on you. The burden is on Surah 9:29. The burden is on the known facts of the Qu'uran of the prophet killing Jews and Christians, which you dismissed and justified as proper conduct in war. If your prophet acts that way, how can I blame the caliphs who love him from emulating that example, any more than I would not expect Adolph Eichmann to talk about how great Jews were in front of Hitler. Let's recap then shall we? The following timeline was from "The Koran", translated by NJ Dawood, Penguin Classics:

626- The Jewish tribe of al-Nadhir crushed and expelled.

627-The Jewish tribe of Qurayza raided by Mohammed, some 800 men beheaded (only one Jew, abjuring his religion to save his life) and all the women and children sold as slaves.

629- The Jews of Khaybar put to the sword.

So, what do I need caliphs for Bar Khela? All they would say is that "I was only following orders" from their prophet. And if they were tolerant at some point in history, then by the conduct of the prophet here they too would be killed by their fellow Muslims who were following these principles. Or do you not remember how Sunni and Shia fought one another at the beginning of your faith, the beheading of Omar, etc? You had internicene war between the followers of Ali and the mullahs, and that is a fact.

You see, you performed some really cute argumentation on this last year, but I have since learned better. You dismiss the Hadiths because they are later and claim they are a corruption of the original Islamic message. However, I have since read that the Hadiths are like the Talmud is to my people. They are highly regarded and considered almost as authoritative as the Qu'uran and in fact a highly reliable oral traditon (much like our Mishnah) commenting on key principles from the original text. And having had a chance to read both sources myself, I can honestly say that it seems to me one flows right into the other.


Quote:Furthemore, Y'shua said that when you hear of a prophet out in the desertn urgin you to follow after him TO IGNORE HIM, or did you miss that one too?


The Jews follow after Moses. Christians follow after Jesus. What are you talking about?

AGR:

I'm a Nazarene remember? Christianity follows Y'shua, who supported Moses as well, as I showed from the earlier quotes. First though let me answer your question from Scripture and then I will explain this position of mine on original believers and Moses. Here we go:

NOT TO GO INTO THE DESERT AND FOLLOW A PROPHET AFTER MESSIAH:

Matthew 24:23-31

23 "Then if anyone tells you, 'Look, here is the Messiah,' or 'There he is,' don't pay any attention. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great miraculous signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God's chosen ones. 25 See, I have warned you. 26 "So if someone tells you, 'Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,' don't bother to go and look. Or, 'Look, he is hiding here,' don't believe it! 27 For as the lightning lights up the entire sky, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. 28 Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near. F135 29 "Immediately after those horrible days end, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of heaven will be shaken. F136 30 And then at last, the sign of the coming of the Son of Man will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the nations of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. F137 31 And he will send forth his angels with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.

And here are the words of Revelation 22:18:

18 And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds anything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone removes any of the words of this prophetic book, God will remove that person's share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book.

REGARDING MOSES AND Y'SHUA:

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them. 18 I assure you, until heaven and earth disappear, even the smallest detail of God's law will remain until its purpose is achieved. 19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 "But I warn you ??? unless you obey God better than the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees do, you can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven at all!

Matthew 5:17-20

46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. 47 And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

John 5:46-47



Quote:I can stand on the Peshitta NT and understand my OT just fine from it alone. I have the greatest Rabbi who ever lived, the Son of YHWH Himself, to teach me, opening me to the Scriptures under the Ruach Ha Kodesh.

1. Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
4. And there is none like unto Him.

Surah 112

Do you agree? Moses would.

AGR:

No, I do not agree and neither would Moses:

13 But Moses protested, "If I go to the people of Israel and tell them, 'The God of your ancestors has sent me to you,' they won't believe me. They will ask, 'Which god are you talking about? What is his name?' Then what should I tell them?" 14 God replied, "I AM THE ONE WHO ALWAYS IS(Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh). F7 Just tell them, 'I AM (Ehyeh) has sent me to you.'" 15 God also said, "Tell them, 'YHWH (Yahweh), F8 the God of your ancestors ??? the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob ??? has sent me to you.' This will be my name forever; it has always been my name, and it will be used throughout all generations.

Exodus 3:13-16

And:

8 "I am Yahweh; that is my name! I will not give my glory to anyone else. I will not share my praise with carved idols. 9 Everything I prophesied has come true, and now I will prophesy again. I will tell you the future before it happens." 10 Sing a new song to Yahweh! Sing his praises from the ends of the earth! Sing, all you who sail the seas, all you who live in distant coastlands. 11 Join in the chorus, you desert towns; let the villages of Kedar rejoice! Let the people of Sela sing for joy; shout praises from the mountaintops! 12 Let the coastlands glorify Yahweh ; let them sing his praise.

Isaiah 42:8-12

And:

10 "But you are my witnesses, O Israel!" says Yahweh . "And you are my servant. You have been chosen to know me, believe in me, and understand that I alone am God. There is no other God; there never has been and never will be. 11 I am Yahweh , and there is no other Savior. 12 First I predicted your deliverance; I declared what I would do, and then I did it ??? I saved you. No foreign god has ever done this before. You are witnesses that I am the only God," says Yahweh . 13 "From eternity to eternity I am God. No one can oppose what I do. No one can reverse my actions."

Isaiah 43:10-12

This is HIS NAME FOR ETERNITY Bar Khela. There is not a single verse in the Qu'uran where "Allah" calls himself YHWH. Instead, Allah simply claims he is the one "god" INSTEAD OF YHWH. Moses did not know Allah. David did not know Allah. The prophets never wrote nor received instruction from Allah. And Y'shua came to declare things in the name of His Father, YHWH, as is connected to his name and YHWH's (Matthew 1:21, John 17:1-5, Philippians 2, Hebrews 1). YHWH always speaks and swears by His own name, so any god that doesn't, that tacks it's identity on to a corruption of a general pagan term, is false.

Furthermore, YHWH says he will not accept praise from idols, like the Ka'aba stone for example which had hundreds of idols. We do not sanitize pagan shrines in the Torah and then walk around them 7 times in veneration, WE TEAR THEM DOWN. Do you want the hundred verses that support that, or will you concede the point?

But what does Moses say about prophets who come NOT in the name of YHWH, the one true God, but instead use another name and another god that try to steal YHWH's glory? Let's read:


1 "Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, 2 and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' 3 do not listen to them. Yahweh your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. 4 Serve only Yahweh your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. 5 The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against Yahweh your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following Yahweh your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 13:1-5


Quote:And my nation is STILL CHARGED with being a light to all nations even as a Jew named Paul witnessed to those same nations. Messiah was a Jew and he is the light of the world. As long as Y'shua is believed in, Israel is still the source of that light. Always was. Always will be. Don't believe me? Read Romans 11. My people are entrusted with the eternal words of YHWH. We did not lose them.

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matthew 21:43)

Jesus says differently than Paul.

AGR:

No Akhi. Neither Y'shua nor Paul say this, because both men affirm the irrevocable promises that YHWH made to Israel. In this instance, you are showing an amazing degree of ignorance. You are assuming the "you" refers to all Israel. It does NOT. It refers to the Pharisees. Next time it might behoove you to actually read the next line or two for context instead of making stuff up:

45 When the leading priests and Pharisees heard Y'shua, they realized he was pointing at them ??? that they were the farmers in his story. 46 They wanted to arrest him, but they were afraid to try because the crowds considered Y'shua to be a prophet.

Matthew 21:45

So much for that load of manure.

Now I will tell you something that most here have never heard and will find shocking. The mainstream Christian belief is that the Pharisees kept the Torah and that the Torah was abolished by Y'shua and/or Paul.

The fact is however, the Pharisees DID NOT KEEP THE TORAH BUT KEPT THE ORAL LAW INSTEAD, AND THIS IS WHY THEIR STATUS WAS STRIPPED. BUT IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ISRAEL AS A WHOLE. THAT PROMISE WAS NEVER ABROGRATED. Want proof? Fine.


1 Some Pharisees and teachers of religious law now arrived from Jerusalem to interview Y'shua. 2 "Why do your disciples disobey our age-old traditions?" they demanded. "They ignore our tradition of ceremonial hand washing before they eat." 3 Y'shua replied, "And why do you, by your traditions, violate the direct commandments of God? 4 For instance, God says, 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' F78 5 But you say, 'You don't need to honor your parents by caring for their needs if you give the money to God instead.' 6 And so, by your own tradition, you nullify the direct commandment of God. 7 You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 8 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. 9 Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.'

Matthew 15:1-9

Then Y'shua said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures (they sit in Moses' seat). 3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.
Matthew 23:1-3


5 So the Pharisees and teachers of religious law asked him, "Why don't your disciples follow our age-old customs? For they eat without first performing the hand-washing ceremony." 6 Y'shua replied, "You hypocrites! Isaiah was prophesying about you when he said, 7 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. Their worship is a farce, for they replace God's commands with their own man-made teachings.' F28 8 For you ignore God's specific laws and substitute your own traditions." 9 Then he said, "You reject God's laws in order to hold on to your own traditions. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' F29 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, 'Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' F30 12 You let them disregard their needy parents. 13 As such, you break the law of God in order to protect your own tradition. And this is only one example. There are many, many others."

Mark 7:5-13

46 But if you had believed Moses, you would have believed me because he wrote about me. 47 And since you don't believe what he wrote, how will you believe what I say?"

John 5:46-47

But what does Messiah say about those, Jew and Gentile, who do keep the instructions of His Father, YHWH? Let's see a few:

46 As Y'shua was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk with him. 47 Someone told Y'shua, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you." 48 Y'shua asked, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" 49 Then he pointed to his disciples and said, "These are my mother and brothers. 50 Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!"

Matthew 12:46-50/Mark 3:31-35

If you want proof of Paul being misunderstood, there is not only my book (and its sequel coming out in a few months) that deals with a lot of those verses but a free lecture on the web about the true understanding of Galatians and its relationship to Paul, the Pharisees and the Oral Law. It takes about 3 hours to make the case but it is compelling. My friend Avi Ben Mordechai, who lives in Jerusalem BTW, is the speaker. So, since I don't have time to get into all of this here, I recommend that you go to his website and hear it for yourself. Find it at <!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.m7000.com">http://www.m7000.com</a><!-- w -->, and click on the bookstore link.


Quote:Now I will tell you what I believe. All people, everywhere, regardless of race, creed, national origin or any other factor, have ONE REDEEMER and ONE MESSIAH. ONE REVELATION FOR ALL MEN, AND LET ME SAY THIS CLEARLY, IT IS NOT THE KORAN. One Torah (and NT) for Jew, Gentile, foreigner, Arab, black, white, green, red. One Path to Life through Maran Eshoa Meshikha, the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF ALAHA, born of a virgin, worker of miracles and risen from the dead on the third day.

If being born of a virgin qualifies Eeshoa to be the 'son of God,' then surely Adam has more right than he.

AGR:

Being born a virgin (Isaiah 7:14) qualifies Y'shua to be SINLESS. Being the Eternal Miltha spoken from YHWH's own mouth, the firstborn of creation, is what qualifies him to be the Son. Having sinned, Adam has no such rights. I think this is pretty clear from the Scripture, but hey, just say the word and I will show you the Word.

Quote:So I don't care what you are, where you are from, your culture, your goals, your tastes, your likes and dislikes, all are null and irrelevant. Y'shua is the only way, the only truth, and the only life.

According to the author(s) of John

AGR:

Oh that's cute. So because other apostles "signed off" on John's report in 21:24 (we know his testimony to be true) the Gospel is not wholly his? And it's according to YHWH himself that these things are true, and according to Y'shua that I believe them. Really Bar Khela you know better.

Quote:You have poorly represented your faith Bar Khela.

I'm just getting warm

AGR:

Which means you have been cold up until now. And you will remain cold as long as you preach lies and hatred. I have read with interest the words of Shimoun and Uma. One seems to suggest that the problem is in the Qu'uran itself, that by its very nature it is evil and dripping with blood, and that the terrorists are actually properly interpereting it. The other says (I think anyway) that the original Qu'uran has been misunderstood. That if Allah is YHWH that Allah always loved and will always love and support Israel.

I don't know which of these is right, but I believe ONE OF THEM MUST BE. And so it comes back to my original statement. You either have shamed the true Qu'uran or you have proven it to be full of lies. I personally don't care which it is. I only know that one of them is.

Understand this: I have no quarrel with anything or anybody about any belief as long as my people are not attacked. But I will fight my enemies of any faith (whether they are true to that faith or are perverting it) any place in YHWH's green earth.

A final word to the Christians here. What I have said about the Pharisees and the oral law, the immuatability of Torah, etc., is only intended as a response to disprove Bar Khela's lie that all of Jews are kicked out of Israel according to the Gospels. As a Nazarene, I have done nothing in secret, but as a member of this forum, I have done my best not to emphasize these things just as a way to incite argument. No question I believe my positions here, but I don't want any of you to think I was attacking you. In fact, were it not absolutely necessary, I would not have gotten into this at all, and barring such bigoted incitement as this in the future, I have no intent of doing so again. Anyone who has questions on this can see my website or read my writings. But I will not make peshitta.org a clearling house for "Andrew Gabriel Roth Inc."

And to my dear friend Paul Younan, my apologies. I would never have gotten down this theological road as far as I had to here if I were not compelled. I could only refute prejudice with Scripture and that means theology was very much on point here. Also my apologies to anyone else who may have been offended by this, as it was not my intention.

Bar Khela, if you cannot even acknowledge the offense you gave or have the slightest compassion for someone who says you offended even if you do not fully understand how you did so, then honestly you have nothing to contribute.

Let me say this one more time: "All Zionists are evil" is not a tenable or tolerant doctrine. I am a Zionist, so yes, I am offended. I don't care if you say it directly or support a quote from someone else, or leave it there and remain silent. The offense is the same.

You know many black people would say that they have a right to criticise their own, but others better not do so. I can relate to that. So if a Rabbi is misguided about anything, Y'shua, Zionism, whatever--I will decide where and how or if to deal with that. But heaven help you for doing the same thing, because the bottom line is that no Rabbi would physcially attack the state of Israel or kill Jews by the thousands, even if they thought Israel was not for real. That is the key difference.

And yes, it is true that I am attacking you from the outside, but I am not forsaking my principles when I am defending my people, and that takes precedence.

Even now though I have hope that you will turn back and that we may continue in peace as we always have done. And you better believe that if someone in my life said I hurt them badly, even if I did not "get it", I would still try to make that right and apologize for the impression. That comes from being married for 10 years more than anything else.

You wnat debate? Act more mature.
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:You wnat debate? Act more mature.

Shlama Andrew,

With all respect to your opinion and how you felt, I feel there is no need to demand an apology from someone who does not feel any remorse of what he had done. You apologize to someone because you realized that you have done wrong. Not because someone (in power such as a moderator) demanded it. Not because you wanted to create a new thread to bash the Bible and wage jihad (total war) against Bible believers. Not because you wanted to continue to promote your Islamic agenda after saying farewell. Cutting and pasting from anti-Bible web sites and calling it a debate in a place where Bible believers gathered is like posting pornography.

You cannot act or pretend to be mature if you are not.


It is just my 0.1 cent opinion.

Peace.
QUOTE
This thread is originally about the language of Jesus. It has been hijacked. I never join any Islamic forum because I am not interested in Islam but I am sure any posting criticizing Islam will be deleted in Islamic web sites.
QUOTE


That is true. But sometimes conversations peter out, and even in real life conversations naturally change from thing to another.


I of course raised the original one, concerning the language of Jesus dieing out etc. Which would be good to discuss again if anyone has any more thoughts about it.


I did want to get an answer on that one question regarding Christian Assyrians fighting alongside the Moslems. I asked about it, and was given a link to one of the Big Assyrian genocide sites. That I actually have looked at a number of times before, concerning that issue in particular. What I'm wondering is there a short answer to my question. Concerning the when and where as far this happening. I have read some about this in the Church Aflame, especially concerning asssyrians in the military in India. But a statement of Paul's about Assyrians fighting Crusaders got me curious as far as wanting to learn more.
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