Peshitta Forum

Full Version: "Losing Jesus' Language"
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Pages: 1 2 3 4
Dave Wrote:For me Ooze, if the aramaic language and it's dialects dies out, it would be because God would rather see it die. Hebrew thrives in Israel, and is growing everyday. Obviously, God does bless that language.


Well I (Among many others) would actually it a miracle that Aramaic has actually lasted as long as it did.


Think about it, except for Greek most of the other classical languages like Latin, Coptic, etc.have died out or mutated into modern tongues.


Based on the fact that both classical Latin, and Koine Greek are both "Dead languages", made me totally expect up until a few years ago that it would be the same with Aramaic. But I was quite shocked to find that yes some people still use this tongue, although their numbers are gradually dwindling....


Anyway, it looks to me that God hand of providence has infact, been instrumental in keeping this language alive. And since we as Christians are suppose to excericse stewardship over all those resources that God gives us. I think it is quite fitting, that those who are gifted perserve this language as part of the Christian heritage. Because it not only is the language of the Lord, but has been the tongue of many great Christians in centuries past! So it is fitting to to entrust to future generations the faith that we have received (And with it comes things like this).
Quote:Anyway, it looks to me that God hand of providence has infact, been instrumental in keeping this language alive. And since we as Christians are suppose to excericse stewardship over all those resources that God gives us. I think it is quite fitting, that those who are gifted perserve this language as part of the Christian heritage. Because it not only is the language of the Lord, but has been the tongue of many great Christians in centuries past! So it is fitting to to entrust to future generations the faith that we have received (And with it comes things like this).

You could be right Ooze! We'll have to see how it pans out. Hebrew had died out then it was brought back, maybe this will happen to it also.

We shall see.
Dan,

Quote:While many people in the Middle East converted to Islam after the invasion of the Arab Muslims out of fear of persecution and paying heavy taxes because they had "If you can't beat them, join them" attitude, the Assyrian Christians have followed Apostle Paul's attitude - I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith (2 Timothy 4:7)

Caliph Omar's Covenant with the Christians in Jerusalem:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html/ol1510a.htm">http://www.sis.gov.eg/online/html/ol1510a.htm</a><!-- m -->
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.sis.gov.eg/jerusalem/html/omars.htm">http://www.sis.gov.eg/jerusalem/html/omars.htm</a><!-- m -->

The Christian Response:

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html">http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html</a><!-- m -->

What's my point:

-Omar (p) did not force Christians to convert to Islam under any circumstance
-Any condition melted out towards the Christians was voluntarily agreed upon as proven from the third link provided.

Please stop referring to medieval rumors about Islam. They're all traced back to the Crusades.
bar_khela Wrote:Please stop referring to medieval rumors about Islam. They're all traced back to the Crusades.

I traced this back to Caliph Umar himself:

Quote:It has been narrated by 'Umar b. al-Khattib that he heard the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) say: I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/muslim/019_smt.html#019_4366">http://www2.iiu.edu.my/deed/hadith/musl ... l#019_4366</a><!-- m -->

What's my point:

- Caliph Umar and his henchman Khalid ibn al-Walid (a.k.a "The Sword of Allah" ) started the invasion.
- Assyrian Christians who lived under persecution and discrimination by Islamic regimes have kept their faith.


Please stop turning this forum into Christian-Islam debates.
Akhi bar-Khela,

You are an African-American male, I would like to ask you one question: Under what circumstances would you voltuntarily submit to the following conditions? Repeat after me:

We African-Americans...

(1) Shall not build, in our black neighborhoods, any new churches, mosques, temples, social organizations, or clubs, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Whites.

(2) We shall keep our gates wide open for Whites. We shall give board and lodging to all Whites who pass our way for three days.

(3) We shall not give shelter in our building or our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the White man.

(4) We shall not teach the Bible to our black children.

(5) We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering the Ku Klux Klan, if they wish it.

(6) We shall show respect toward the White man, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

(7) We shall not seek to resemble the White man by imitating any of their garments, the suit, the tie, footwear, or the straightness of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their culture.

(8) We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our persons.

(9) We shall not engrave English inscriptions on our seals.

(10) We shall not sell fermented drinks.

(11) We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

(12) We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind a yellow ribbon around our waists.

(13) We shall not display our African symbols or our books in the roads or markets of the Whites. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Whites, or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Whites.

(14) We shall not take slaves who have been allotted to Whites.

(15) We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Whites.

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant, and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Bob Jones replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Whites," and "Whoever strikes a White with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

Well? Sound like something you would voluntarily sign?

No? Really? Then why, in Alaha's name, would you even suggest that the Christians of any place under Islamic mis-rule would have done so voluntarily?

Aren't these the same conditions outlined in your link above - that they supposedly "volunteered" to abide by?
Quote:What's my point:

- Assyrian Christians who lived under persecution and discrimination by Islamic regimes have kept their faith.

If all Muslims are going to be held accountable for what the Turks did during WWI, then I hold every professing Christian here accountable for American slavery and Puritan "savage" cleansing.

I hold you accountable for Constantine and Henry VII.
I hold you accountable for the execution of Tydale and the Spanish Inquisition
I call you to account for the intolerace shown to Muslim "filth" and Jews by the Crusaders

I blame the East for the West (since we're all about generalization here)

But of course, all of this can be expected of a Christian since in his or her Bible, Jesus says ""Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword" Mt.10:34. I mean, after all, "he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one" Lk.22:36.
Paul Younan Wrote:Akhi bar-Khela,

Quote:You are an African-American male, I would like to ask you one question: Under what circumstances would you voltuntarily submit to the following conditions? Repeat after me:

I prefer "One of the last remaining archetypes of man." Or, you can address me as "one of the ancient men of renown from whom my own ancestors descended from." Africa, too, flows in your veins.

Quote:No? Really? Then why, in Alaha's name, would you even suggest that the Christians of any place under Islamic mis-rule would have done so voluntarily?

Aren't these the same conditions outlined in your link above - that they supposedly "volunteered" to abide by?

RECOGNITION OF RULE

Patriarch Ish??yahb III, writing to his correspondent Simeon of Rewardashir around the year 650, in the heat of the intra-Christian controversy of the time said

"As for the Arabs, to whom God has at this time given rule (shult??n??) over the world, you know well how they act toward us. Not only do they not oppose Christianity, but they praise our faith, honour the priests and saints of our Lord, and give aid to the churches and monasteries" Hoyland, Seeing Islam as Others Saw It, p. 181.

WAS CONVERSION FORCED

An anonymous Syriac chronicler from T??r cAbd??n, who completed his narrative somewhere around the year 775, offers this comment on the behavior of some of his contemporaries. He says,

The gates were opened to them to [enter] Islam. . . . Without blows or tortures they slipped towards apostasy in great precipitancy; they formed groups of ten or twenty or thirty or a hundred or two hundred or three hundred without any sort of compulsion . . ., going down to Harr??n and becoming Moslems in the presence of [government] officials. A great crowd did so . . . from the districts of Edessa and of Harr??n and of Tella and of Resaina Translation of J. B. Segal, Edessa 'The Blessed City' (Oxford, 1970), p. 206, from J.-B. Chabot, Incerti Auctoris Chronicon Pseudo-Dionysianum vulgo Dictum (CSCO, vol. 104; Louvain, 1952), pp. 381-385. See now the version of Amir Harrak, The Chronicle of Zuqn??n; Parts III and IV, A.D. 488-775 (Mediaeval Sources in Translation, 36; Toronto: Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies, 1999), p. 324

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol3No1/HV3N1Griffith.html#FNRef10">http://syrcom.cua.edu/Hugoye/Vol3No1/HV ... ml#FNRef10</a><!-- m -->

The Assyrian Christians loved us.
Akhi Paul,

Let's not forget Michael the Elder ( Patriarch of the Jacobite Syriac Church) and his opinion on the 'mis-rule' of the Muslims.

"This is why the God of vengeance, who alone is all-powerful, and changes the empire of mortals as He will, giving it to whomsoever He will, and uplifting the humble beholding the wickedness of the Romans who throughout their dominions, cruelly plundered our churches and our monasteries and condemned us without pity, brought from the region of the south the sons of Ishmael, to deliver us through them from the hands of the Romans. And if in truth we have suffered some loss, because the Catholic churches, that had been taken away from us and given to the Chalcedonians, remained in their possession; for when the cities submitted to the Arabs, they assigned to each denomination the churches which they found it to be in possession of (and at that time the great churches of Emessa and that of Harran had been taken away from us); nevertheless it was no slight advantage for us to be delivered from the cruelty of the Romans, their wickedness, their wrath and cruel zeal against us, and to find ourselves at people. (Michael the Elder, Jacobite Patriarch of Antioch wrote this text in the latter part of the twelfth century, after five centuries of Muslim rule in that region" Michael the Elder (Great) as Quoted in 'Michael the Elder, Chronique de Michael Syrien, Patriarche Jacobite d??? Antioche,' J.B. Chabot, Editor, Vol. II, Paris, 1901.

Your predecessors had a different opinion about Islam, Dan and Paul. It is all documented.

As for Dan, I do not want to turn this into an Islamic-Christian forum. Talk about Aramaic. Just stop rallying up the crowd with these tales of yours.
Interesting!!!!
Akhi Paul,

THE CRUSADERS

"Jerusalem was stormed in July 1099. The rabid ferocity of its sack showed just how little the Church had succeeded in Christianising atavistic instincts. The entire population of the Holy City was put to the sword, Jews as well as Moslems, 70,000 men, women and children perished in a holocaust, which raged for three days. In places men waded in blood up to their ankles and horsemen were splashed by it as they rode through the streets" Desmond Seward, The Monks of War, Penguin Books, London, 1972.

"Wonderful sights were to be seen. Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are normally chanted . . . in the temple and the porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins" August C. Krey, The First Crusade: The Accounts of Eye-Witnesses and Participants, Princeton & London, 1921, p. 261

COMMENTS ON THE CRUSADES

Some historians suggest that the impoverished kings of Christendom, eager to exploit the fabled riches of the East, pressurized the Pope to call a "holy war." Others find an altogether different motive for Pope Urban II, suggesting that he wished to gain power and prestige for himself at the expense of a rival claiming to be pope. But in reality, all the various kings, princes, aristocrats and others who obliged this call did so for worldly purposes. As Donald Queller of the University of Illionois put it, "the French knights wanted more land. Italian merchants hoped to expand trade in Middle Eastern ports. . . Large numbers of poor people joined the expeditions simply to escape the hardships of their normal lives" 2Ph.D., Prof. of History, Univ. of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign, World Book Inc., 1998.

THE MUSLIM RESPONSE TO THE CRUSADERS

"Despite the growth of antagonism, Moslem (Muslim) rulers seldom made their Christian subjects suffer for the Crusades. When the Saracens finally resumed the full control of Palestine the Christians were given their former status as dhimmis. The Coptic Church, too had little cause for complaint under Saladin's (Salahuddin) strong government, and during the time of the earlier Mameluke sultans who succeeded him the Copts experienced more enlightened justice than they had hitherto known. The only effect of the Crusaders upon Egyptian Christians was to keep them for a while from pilgrimage to Jerusalem, for as long as the Frank were in charge heretics were forbidden access to the shrines. Not until the Moslem victories could they enjoy their rights as Christians" James Addison in 'The Christian Approach to the Moslem,' p. 35.


Since you and the Crusaders worship the same Christ, you are equally accountable for their misdeeds since I am held accountable for al-Qaida. After all, it's only fair.


IS THE ASSYRIAN CHURCH GUILTY OF MUSLIM BLOOD?

Hugalu Khan the Mongal, although himself irreligious, married Dokuz Khatun (a "Nestorian" princess) like his own mother. She later influenced him to murder thousands in Baghdad.

Hulagu sent a message to the caliph, Al-Musta'sim, containing the following (trans. John Woods):

"When I lead my army against Baghdad in anger, whether you hide in heaven or in earth
I will bring you down from the spinning spheres;
I will toss you in the air like a lion.
I will leave no one alive in your realm;
I will burn your city, your land, your self.
If you wish to spare yourself and your venerable family, give heed to my advice with the ear of intelligence. If you do not, you will see what God has willed."

The caliph was not sure how to react to Hulagu's invasion, but weakly defended the city. Hulagu ordered various sections of Baghdad's population spared, such as learned men and Christians, but killed at least 250,000 people (contemporary sources say 800,000). Hulagu killed the caliph by wrapping him in a rug and having him either "beaten to a pulp" or trampled by horses

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulaku_Khan">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hulaku_Khan</a><!-- m -->

I could go on and on and on.....
...and I will

WELL, HOW DID JEWS FEEL ABOUT ISLAM

Rabbi Baruch Kaplan

???When I was in Hebron in 1929, there occurred the tragic massacre of over twenty yeshiva students, great scholars, plus another forty members of the Jewish community. I would like to describe the error that has circulated in Jewish communities ??? a horrible error, that accuses the Arabs in Hebron of being murderers who attacked the Jews simply because the Arabs were ???bad people.??? In order to correct the record, this error must be corrected. The Arabs were very friendly people, and the Jewish People in Hebron lived together with them and had very friendly relations with them. They worked for Jews, and everybody got along just fine.

To take just one example, I used to have the habit of walking a mile or two out of town all by myself to visit a tree that was believed to be the tree where our patriarch Abraham met the three angels, as described in Genesis. I especially enjoyed visiting the tree in the summertime. Along the way I would talk to the Arabs, though it was mostly using our hands because I didn???t speak any Arabic. Interestingly enough, no one in the yeshiva ever told me it was dangerous to go by myself among the Arabs. We just lived with them, and got along very well.

I have also seen a letter from the Grand Rabbi of the Gerrer Hassidim of those days, Rabbi Avraham Mordechai Alter of Poland, regarding his trip to the Holy Land during the days when people were talking about emigrating to Palestine. He wanted to find out what kind of people the Palestinians were, in order to be able to advise people whether to move there or not. He wrote in his letter that the Arabs were a very friendly and fine people.

Therefore it???s necessary to set the record straight about the accusations that the Palestinians were terrible killers who liked attacking Jews. This was never the situation at all!

Today???s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy. At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish ???national symbol.??? Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that ???The Wall is ours!??? It???s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever. An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.

The Zionists refused to heed the calls of Rabbi Zonnenfeld, and they called a large meeting of Jews in Jerusalem ??? supposedly some 10,000 people showed up. One of the speakers was their ???chief Rabbi??? (Avraham Isaac Kook), who proclaimed, ???Hear O Israel, the Wall is our Wall, the Wall is One??? (which is a ridiculous pun on the blessing, ???Hear O Israel, the Lord your G-d, the Lord is One???). This began the conflict at the time between the Zionists and the Arabs.

Afterwards, we were studying at the yeshiva in Hebron, and saw a bunch of boys in short pants carrying weapons on bicycles and motorcycles, running around the streets of Hebron. We were very worried about this. What were they up to?

In brief, our rabbi, the supervisor of our religious academy, Rabbi Moshe Mordechai Epstein, called them for a meeting, but they refused. He was forced to go over to them, and asked them what they were up to. He accused them of wanting to provoke the Arabs. They responded that they were coming to protect us!! We cried out, ???Woe is us! G-d have mercy!??? They didn???t want to leave town until it was too late!

These arrogant cowards only ran away when the local leaders of the Arabs called for a mass meeting of the people of the surrounding Arab villages. But it was too late; the Arabs got organized, and the Mufti called on his people to be ready Friday night when the yeshiva would be attending prayers. At this point, the yeshiva was alone against the Zionists, but the Arabs didn???t know to distinguish between us and the Zionists. Sadly they attacked and killed some of our people, including the great scholar, Rabbi Shmuel Rosenhaltz.

The next morning we heard about the excitement in town, and even worse, we heard the crying and shouting. I and a friend, Avraham Ushpener, lived in an apartment that was part of a three-story building leased by a Jew from an Arab. We could hear all the noise from our apartment on the third floor. We were terrified to let the Arabs in because we knew how angry they had become, but a while later things calmed down. In total, some 65 people were killed. On the other side of town, however, the Jews were spared.

Why am I telling this story? It is because I wanted to describe how the wicked Zionists, both today and in those days, were the cause of our suffering! They cooperated with the Nazis, and our religion teaches that a person who causes someone to sin is worse than someone who kills him.

It reminds me of an event recounted by Rabbi Moshe Schonfeld, who once visited Rabbi Avraham Yeshayahu Karelitz {Chazon Ish) when the Zionist state was established, and when there was fighting between the Zionists and the Arabs. Rabbi Schonfeld told Rabbi Karelitz about what was happening. Rabbi Karelitz told him that the crimes of the Zionists were much worse, because they were wicked heretics who were uprooting hundreds of thousands of Jews from their faith and that is much greater pain since our Sages stated that a person who causes another person to sin is much worse than if he kills him.

In our own days there is a Zionist leader (Begin), whose arrogance and selfishness is more important than anything else to him, and for which he is prepared to sacrifice hundreds and thousands of Jews. These heretics and evildoers, this Zionist leader of a state that killed the Judaism of the Yemenite and Moroccan Jews, and of many other Sephardic Jews! This is the work of these thugs and gangsters. And there are religious Jewish parties who dare to state that they love this man?! Everyone must know that the anger of the Arabs against us is only caused by the Zionists!

The Arabs were a friendly people to us, and I am a witness to it. We lived very well with them in Hebron. Rabbi Alter attested to this as well, and it is the accursed Zionists who caused them to hate us. The Zionists dare to use their power to expel the Arabs, and even today in Lebanon, they kill and butcher the Arabs; they wipe out whole villages with the airplanes they get from the United States.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documents/KaplanInterview.cfm">http://www.nkusa.org/Historical_Documen ... erview.cfm</a><!-- m -->
Shlama Akhi bar-Khela,

We've been killed over and over again by both Western Christians and by Muslims.

At times, yes, Muslims have been very tolerant. At other times, they were commiting genocides against us. The genocides have been, on average, every 50 years since the Hagira of Muhammed. That's why we are an insignificant minority today.

But anyway, that's not what I asked you. I know there were periods of tolerance and even immense favour shown to the Church of the East under Islamic rule. Those times were few, but they were a historic fact. I also know that the Church of the East suffered just as much as anyone else did during the "Crusades." It wasn't easy fighting alongside with Muslims against the invading "Christian" army. But we did.

None of these points deal with what I've asked you.

Under what circumstances would you, as an African-American, voluntarily submit to the conditions listed above?

NOTE: I want an answer from you, I want your opinion. Don't cut-and-paste a reply from a website. Answer me as Kevin Sparks.
Quote:None of these points deal with what I've asked you.

Under what circumstances would you, as an African-American, voluntarily submit to the conditions listed above?

NOTE: I want an answer from you, I want your opinion. Don't cut-and-paste a reply from a website. Answer me as Kevin Sparks.

I would only submit voluntarily to the conditions listed above if I had the psychology of a victim who'd do anything for survival.

If I were a third-generation slave who just "jumped the broom" with Betty, I'd certainly voluntarily submit to those conditions to avoid harsher treatment, such as watching the overseer sleep with my virgin wife while I'm chained to the doorpost for listening pleasure. Or, having my children sent to other plantations out of the blue. Better yet, having to see Betty "strung up" on a tree with our unborn child "strung up" as well by the umbilical cord for having learned how to read.

Now let's say that the English came along to liberate my family from that torment only if I followed those conditions presently discussed.

Hell yeah I'd sign it.
Akhi Bar Khela, have you forgotten me? Have you forgotten the kindness I have shown you? Apparently you have--I AM A ZIONIST. I WAS BORN A ZIONIST AND I WILL DIE A ZIONIST, PROUD OF MY PEOPLE AND MY HERITAGE.

To be a Zionist, as even Martin Luther King Jr. observed, is to believe that Hebrew people have a right to exist in Israel within peaceful and secure borders. Nothing more, and nothing less. So Zionism is not racism, anti-Zionism is. Don't parse words with me about Arabs not being anti-Semites because they ARE Semitic themselves. But many of them are anti-JEWISH--they want to drive every last one of my people into the sea. They are Haman. They are Hitler. They will fail.

If the Palestinians(Fatah and Hamas) wanted peace they would have taken the deal they got in 1999. If they wanted peace they would not say "end the occupation" and have it apply to ALL OF ISRAEL, even the parts not in dispute. If they wanted peace, the PLO's emblem would not be a bloody knife through ALL OF ISRAEL. If they wanted peace they would have kept EVEN ONE provision of the Oslo Accord whereas the Israelis made serious attempts--we can argue over some details--to keep every provision in one way or another. If they wanted peace they would not put suicide bombers who blow up innocents on schoolbuses as the moral equivalent of combatants and heros. AND THEY WOULD NOT HAVE DANCED IN THE STREETS WHILE WE DIED ON SEPTEMBER 11TH AND THEN TRY TO SAY ISRAEL DID IT WHEN THEY KNOW IT WA OSAMA AND PRAISED HIM FOR IT, IF THEY WANTED PEACE!!!

As for myself, I have no problem with Palestinians living in Israel, and participating in the government. If they did, they might even become the majority and could legislate the changes they want. But they won't do that, because they want Israel to die. And it's not as if they have not been invited to participate often, because they have.

And when I read crap like this, where you paint with such a broad brush my entire race:

Today???s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy. At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish ???national symbol.??? Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that ???The Wall is ours!??? It???s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever. An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.


...it makes my blood boil. As if you know about "all Zionists" when I am one. How would you feel if I generalized about your race or religion? ANd why should we not try to build a wall against people who want to destroy us? Is Israel the first country to think of this? Would you have protested Chin Chuan's building efforts in China 2000 years ago if you were there?

Again, I have no qualms with peaceful coexistence of Jews and Palestinians, and there is a belief among some Orthodox that spiritual Israel must be established first, hence the rabbinic quotes. But remember, it was THEY who attacked us on the day we became a state. It was THEY who committed murder on our holiest day of the year in 1973, hijacked our planes, and killed out athletes in Munich.

Israel is my ancestral home, and anyone who would deny me the right to live there earns my wrath. Anyone who takes away my ineritance or tells me my holy places are not mine will find me a fierce and determined foe. You think we will allow Israel to go so the next Hitler can round us up and put us into gas chambers? NEVER AGAIN!

SHAME ON YOU!
Quote:
Andrew Gabriel Roth Wrote:Akhi Bar Khela, have you forgotten me? Have you forgotten the kindness I have shown you? Apparently you have--I AM A ZIONIST. I WAS BORN A ZIONIST AND I WILL DIE A ZIONIST, PROUD OF MY PEOPLE AND MY HERITAGE.

To be a Zionist, as even Martin Luther King Jr. observed, is to believe that Hebrew people have a right to exist in Israel within peaceful and secure borders. Nothing more, and nothing less. So Zionism is not racism, anti-Zionism is. Don't parse words with me about Arabs not being anti-Semites because they ARE Semitic themselves. But many of them are anti-JEWISH--they want to drive every last one of my people into the sea. They are Haman. They are Hitler. They will fail.

If the Palestinians(Fatah and Hamas) wanted peace they would have taken the deal they got in 1999. If they wanted peace they would not say "end the occupation" and have it apply to ALL OF ISRAEL, even the parts not in dispute. If they wanted peace, the PLO's emblem would not be a bloody knife through ALL OF ISRAEL. If they wanted peace they would have kept EVEN ONE provision of the Oslo Accord whereas the Israelis made serious attempts--we can argue over some details--to keep every provision in one way or another. If they wanted peace they would not put suicide bombers who blow up innocents on schoolbuses as the moral equivalent of combatants and heros. AND THEY WOULD NOT HAVE DANCED IN THE STREETS WHILE WE DIED ON SEPTEMBER 11TH AND THEN TRY TO SAY ISRAEL DID IT WHEN THEY KNOW IT WA OSAMA AND PRAISED HIM FOR IT, IF THEY WANTED PEACE!!!

As for myself, I have no problem with Palestinians living in Israel, and participating in the government. If they did, they might even become the majority and could legislate the changes they want. But they won't do that, because they want Israel to die. And it's not as if they have not been invited to participate often, because they have.

And when I read crap like this, where you paint with such a broad brush my entire race:

Today???s wicked Zionists are just like their predecessors, who were responsible for causing terrible suffering in Palestine with their wars with the Arabs, may G-d have mercy. At that time in 1929, the Zionists had a slogan arguing that the Western Wall in Jerusalem was a Jewish ???national symbol.??? Of course, the Arabs disagreed with this idea, considering that they had control of the location for over 1,100 years. However, the Zionist mobs were yelling that ???The Wall is ours!??? It???s hard to understand why they felt that way considering they have no connection to the Jewish holy places whatsoever. An argument erupted in the Jewish newspapers about establishing a permanent prayer area for Jews at the Wall. This provoked the Arabs, and the rabbi of Jerusalem at the time, Rabbi Yosef Chaim Zonnenfeld begged them to stop and to be appreciative to the Arabs for allowing Jews to pray at the Wall for so many centuries undisturbed. However, the Zionists wanted a permanent setup under their control.


...it makes my blood boil. As if you know about "all Zionists" when I am one. How would you feel if I generalized about your race or religion? ANd why should we not try to build a wall against people who want to destroy us? Is Israel the first country to think of this? Would you have protested Chin Chuan's building efforts in China 2000 years ago if you were there?

Again, I have no qualms with peaceful coexistence of Jews and Palestinians, and there is a belief among some Orthodox that spiritual Israel must be established first, hence the rabbinic quotes. But remember, it was THEY who attacked us on the day we became a state. It was THEY who committed murder on our holiest day of the year in 1973, hijacked our planes, and killed out athletes in Munich.

Israel is my ancestral home, and anyone who would deny me the right to live there earns my wrath. Anyone who takes away my ineritance or tells me my holy places are not mine will find me a fierce and determined foe. You think we will allow Israel to go so the next Hitler can round us up and put us into gas chambers? NEVER AGAIN!

SHAME ON YOU!

Son of Thunder,

You misinterpreted me.

To be honest, I care less about the political situation in Israel. I only wanted to show Paul how one Rabbi felt about Arabs. My point was to show how Jews and Arabs coexisted in relative peace for centuries without war.

It was in Muslim Spain that the Rambam composed "Guide for the Perplexed"

My point is that Muslims, who actually adhere by the Qu'ran and the lifestyle of the Prophet, do not go around killing Jews and Christians. I cannot make my point clearer.

Secondly, I have not forgotten about the kindness you've shown me throughout the years.
Pages: 1 2 3 4