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It looks like I'm proably going to start debating Greek primacists again. On big one in particualr.

Anyway I thought it would help to focus on the way, Greek primacists relate to their ancient texts.

My basic thought/assumption is if Greek primacy was really true, lets say if an apostle really did write a book in Greek there should be very little variation between texts of that book. Because his thought should be pretty clean, and the only quirky differences should come from scribal copying errors. And from what I can tell we don't see this actually played out, as far as looking at textual differences between Greek texts.

So anyway my basic thought was, if Greek supremacy was really true. You should have one of the ancient texts be very clean. In the same manner that we between the peshitta/peshitto where there isn't many differences. etc.

Anyway I was just thinking about how Greek primacists handle their text. For instance how many have a "baptized" textus recepticus that they believe is infallible or as close to the orginal as you can get. Versus others who look at all the ancient Kione texts and basically do their translation looking at common denominators, or according to what "makes sense" looking at the variances etc.

It just seems to me, that the more Greek texts you have to rely on, and pick and choose among them, the weaker the case for Greek primacy is. Although I'm sure many do see one text as being supreme and ignore the other ones and that itself causes many problems, faulty assumptions, and errors of logic etc.
Shlama Akhi oozeaddai :-)

Check this out from William Norton's book.
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Shlama w'Burkate, Larry Kelsey

We know the aramaic does correct many areas within the greek text. The only problem I'm seeing with the peshitta at the moment is the doctrinal issues it presents. Does it agree with mainstream Christianity and teaches correct doctrine or does it confuse and divide the church? As I see it, it has certain areas in the NT that agree with the "Jesus is GOD" heretics. This will show itself to me a major problem as this text is promoted over the greek.

The greek followers have always had problems deciding which texts to group together. Standardized text or what? None of the scholars can decide. Most likely GOD gets a big laugh out of them since they don't ask HIM they just vote on everything instead. pitiful.

The greek followers should be looking more into the western text since the greek witnesses to it way more than the peshitta ever will. This was the text that ruled the 1st couple centuries, that can be readily identified as being the oldest family of texts. The Old Syriac was generally agreed upon that it came from the greek anyways, as does the Harklean versions. They should be looking at those also since they have a greek background. Crawford manuscript? Most likely a greek background. The hebrew matthew that mister Trimm loves so much? Most likely a greek background, similar to the one that the Middle Dutch Leige manuscript followed.

Ect, Ect.

I don't think they really want to pay attention to things. They feel they have it all figured out in their standardized versions.
Hi again ooze,

I had an idea where you can discuss with your friends. Most Christians today believe that Jesus is God, however the Greek is not so clear on the issue, calling Him "lord" so often.

The Aramaic calls Him "MarYah" (Lord YHWH) and "Alaha" so often, making it clear that Yeshua is definitely God.

So that here the Peshitta is far clearer on what can be a confusing issue in the Greek. If only Jehovah's Witnesses, of which I have some friends, would use the Peshitta! Imagine the far less schism in the Church if we all used the Peshitta with its clear teachings.


Hey thanks everyone! Well the one guy who I thought was probably going to debate me didn't. He's actually a pretty smart age 20 something seminary grad student. A baptist I beleive.

Anyway, he said a bunch of things obviously assuminging Greek primacy. Which I ignored, but when he began to talk or theorize, how some of the New Testament quotes that appear in the NT were mostly translated by Apostle Paul from Hebrew into Greek, to go with the NT he was writing in Greek.. Well I went nuts and had to say something.

Mainly talking about how I'm always amazed at the ammount of mental gymnastics and rationalization people need to go through to believe in Greek primacy. And a couple basic reasons of the top of my head why this was a violation of basic common sense. Anyway he ignored me, and apparently decided to not debate me.

In the past, when I talked about comparative studies of Greek vs. Aramaic he has had little sneering comments but he seems to me to be really avoiding a real debate on the overall merits of Aramaic over Greek (presumable because he doesn't ever have time so he claims).

Oh well, I will continue to study and plug Aramaic. I kind of wonder what influence we can have at the grass roots level if we all are active in some degree for Aramaic apologetics and advocacy.
Dave wrote:
"We know the aramaic does correct many areas within the greek text. The only problem I'm seeing with the peshitta at the moment is the doctrinal issues it presents. Does it agree with mainstream Christianity and teaches correct doctrine or does it confuse and divide the church? As I see it, it has certain areas in the NT that agree with the "Jesus is GOD" heretics. This will show itself to me a major problem as this text is promoted over the greek."

Wow, WOW!
How can a man challenge the Peshitta text reliability?
Dave, for me the Peshitta solves the problems. Jesus is Jehovah as 1st Corinthians says. The 22 books Peshitta was faithfully copied for almost 2000 years, all manuscripts are identical. A tree is understood on account of its fruits. The Greek New Testament represents many versions, or as Paul Younan said many New Testaments. As scribes heavily were distorting the GNT then what fruits we have now?The results are evident!
Some smart people here today!

Yes Ooze, there is a lot of "mental gymnastics" involved in Greek primacy aand Aramaic Primacy is like "yeah, obviously". I had a debate with a scholar on the issue and he had an answer for everything... Dodgy answers, but answers. Then came 14-14-13 in the genealogy. He threw a hissy fit and left. People get upset when they realise that they were wrong. Just an idea for a big weapon you can use... I also used the Hebrews 4:9/Sabbath issue to reach out to some Messianics who found it amazing.

And Mr. Ostapyuk, are you my twin brother or what? You had my thoughts exactly!
Another thing Ooze that can be discussed is lingua franca. More and more Greek scholars admot that Greek in the Mid-East was more of an elitist language and that the common language of the Semites was Aramaic. There is much proof of this, such as there were Greek speakers in Egypt, but the "uneducated" spoke something else... For example, the famous story of the Egyptian who couldn't speak Greek to her leaders and the story of Paul and the chief, who was surprised that Paul could speak Greek, as he thought Paul was just some Egyptian terrorist. Paul was an educated man!

Another one you can rip straight from my book. It is well documented that Arabaic in the Muslim uprising, replaced Aramaic in the Mid-East. Where was the Greek in all this?!

THEN, we have James writing to the twelve tribes abroad. They all spoke one language assumably. Was it the language of Greek? Or the Semitic language of Aramaic. Well let us look at the facts. The Israelites continued to use Aramaic after the various dispersions, as Aramaic inscriptions are found even in Britain... The Talmud - Aramaic... James - full of Aramaicisms. Clearly the twelve tribes were Aramaic-speakers. Still from way back when they were in captivity by the Assyrians.


Don't mean to spam but you can also talk of Philemon. A letter supposedly written by a Greek speaker to a Greek speaking Greek in Greece. And the Greek copy of it is filled with Aramaic proofs. It uses Aramaic construction and idiom, and I found 2 split word in the first 2 verses. One of which is a 4-way split word (i.e. 4 different Greek texts stemming from the one reading in the Peshitta).
As I see Dave is Greek primacist.
Our forum very needs Greek primacists because any disputed matter needs two sides to be heard. I do not know if Paul Younan is still watching this forum. Paul, I think You have to treasure Chris in this forum. Let us put aside doctrinal convictions, and be united with common goal towards the New Testament original.
I do love the GNT a lot too as mentioned about it before for its extreme importance.
"I do love the GNT a lot too "

Good for you Akhi! You know what my favourite OT version is at the moment? The LXX - even though it is Greek <!-- sBig Grin --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/happy.gif" alt="Big Grin" title="Happy" /><!-- sBig Grin --> GNT and LXX and still witnesses to the Semitic originals, and have been useful in missions etc
Quote:How can a man challenge the Peshitta text reliability?

a man can't, because he is unable to discern the one true Spirit within the text, because he is only a man. He has not received anything more than he was born with in this world,.....yet.

Why would GOD continue to utilize the greek when clearly you guys are in-the-know about it's linguistic flaws? Why would HE do that?


Tell you what, why don't you take your case up with GOD? Argue with HIM about this just like satan does every once in a while. Clearly GOD doesn't know any better about what version HE should be using, and that HE should be using what you guys say HE should be?!?! You all know better the HIM, right?!


Hehe, hey I'm just an innocent bystander getting a laugh off your arguing all the time with GOD's people, don't mind me.

Oh, hey, heres some help, if you wanna really cause some problems, make a forum where you can refute everything about mainstream Christianity and what GOD does, there's an idea for you!

Better yet, why not write a book!
I hope Akhan Paul Younan is healthy physically and mentally, because for the life of me, I can't figure out why he allows someone on the forum who attacks Peshitta primacy, attacks Peshitta primacists, calls people who believe that Yeshua is God "heretics" (ironically of which most of us belong, including Paul and myself), and just generally drags the forum's reputation through the mud.


Quote:calls people who believe that Yeshua is God "heretics" (ironically of which most of us belong, including Paul and myself),

I want to clarify something about this statement. Paul and I believe in the triune nature of GOD. This includes the understanding that they are 3 separate and distinct entities, The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. This in in accordance with what the COE teaches and continues to teach, what mainstream Christianity teaches, and what GOD confirms through his sons and daughters by The Holy Spirit in HIS church, during the day to day services, every day.

You are of the oneness crowd belief. You believe that GOD encompasses just one being,...Jesus, and that He encompasses all 3. You adhere to no dominational beliefs. This is stated on your website.

This is not an arguement nor a damnation from me about Chris, it is a clarification just so others are not misled by what Chris just said.
Who are You??
What are you doing in this forum?
What are Your intentions?
I do not need your answers.
Let administrator of the forum decide what to do with you.
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